The "Hard Pick" Quandry!!!

[LastMohican]

A guy at Steilberg said a lot of Mando players he knows use the Dunlop Ultex picks and these suckers are thick and hard!

I've tried the Golden Gates and didn't like 'em.

I've been playing with a Fender medium guitar pick

These Ultex picks-I actually think my ability to move through a line improves and I know I'm some faster with this pick.

The downside-I lose some of my volume (not as bad as I did with the Golden Gates but still noticeable) and my pick noise significantly increases.

Opinions, boys! Should I stick with this hard, thick pick and I'll eventually add my volume back and, with better proficiency, reduce the pick noise.

I also plan to order a few of the Wegens.

Or just pack it in and go back to the medium.

[robert.najlis]

I have tried the ones you mentioned. I like the Wegen TF140 (you will get lots of opinions though...)

[Nonprophet]

I have tried the ones you mentioned. I like the Wegen TF140 (you will get lots of opinions though...)

+1

I modify one point to match the same rounded profile as a Dawg/GoldenGate pic. Just lay a Dawg pic on top of a Wegen TF140 (also works great with 1.4mm Clayton triangle pics) and trace the outer edge of the Dawg pic onto the TF140 with a sharpie marker. I use a random orbital sander to take the point down to the sharpie line I made, and then I hand bevel a "speed bevel" with an exacto knife. Takes about 5 mins to do, and it works great! I leave the other two points the way they came, and when I'm strumming more than picking I rotate the modified TF140 to an original point for better strumming, and then back to the rounded point for picking.....

NP

[AZStu]

I use Dunlop JazzTone 208's for both mandolin and guitar. It makes life simpler to only have to look for one style of pick. The Fender mediums are too light. You can't drive a spike with a tack hammer!

[Brent Hutto]

There are picking styles that don't work at all with a stiff pick. Some people's right-hand technique depends on the pick flexing and moving out of the way or their stroke doesn't work, they'll get caught on the string with a pick that doesn't flex.

Other picking styles depend on the pick staying firm and the string moving out of the way. Their style doesn't work with a pick that flexes.

[Jim Broyles]

I honestly don't see how you can lose volume with the Ultex picks, but I'd use the 1.4 maximum, and preferably, 1.14. The 2.0 are noisy on the strings. On my mandolin the 1.14s are most definitely louder than a Fender medium. I also do not agree that there are picking styles which don't work at all with a stiff pick. I always use a stiff pick, 100% of the time, for both guitar and mandolin and there is no style of picking I attempt which I cannot do with them. It's in the picking hand.

[Brent Hutto]

I also do not agree that there are picking styles which don't work at all with a stiff pick. I always use a stiff pick, 100% of the time, for both guitar and mandolin and there is no style of picking I attempt which I cannot do with them. It's in the picking hand.

I think what you are calling "picking hand" and what I'm calling "picking stroke" are the same thing. There is a certain technique used that works with a stiff pick. Not everyone uses that technique. I did not mean anything to do with "style" in sense of musical styles.

[Jim Broyles]

I'm pretty sure I knew exactly what you meant. I didn't mean musical styles either.

[Brent Hutto]

Well I've certainly seen people play guitar and mandolin who can't seem to make a stiff pick work at all. Yet with a thin pick they do fine. Subject of course to the fact that it still sounds to me like a thin pick, which is a sound I don't care for. But they would have to do something different with their right-hand technique to make a stiff pick work.

That's all I meant, whatever it is they do they'd have to change it if they wanted to get decent result with a stiffer pick that doesn't flex the instant it hits the string.

[Jim Broyles]

Well, my father-in-law insists on playing mandolin with a thin pick. He doesn't think he can make a stiff pick work at all, but I can tell you, he can't make a thin pick work either. His technique, as well as his tone, suffers by his refusal to try a stiff pick. He cannot tremolo, but it is made worse by the pick's flimsiness and the physical properties which cause the pick to actually hinder his execution. I maintain that there is no picking style that I want to try which I cannot execute with a stiff pick, but there are many which I cannot do with a thin pick. I'd call your statement true if you had said "thin" instead of "stiff."

[Mike Bunting]

I gotta weigh in on the side of jbmando here. I would never trade the good tone of a heavier pick for the convenience of a thin pick. Thin picks always sound like the old folded matchbook in the spokes trick.

[Brent Hutto]

Hey I agree totally. Thin picks don't make the sound I want to hear and I have no idea how to even get a halfway-decent sound out of a thin pick. Especially on mandolin.

I'm just saying that some people do use them, they do like them and if you just hand them a 1.4mm Wegen it's not going to work for them because of the way they play, their playing style, their picking hand, whatever you want to call it. I doubt it's that they really dig that thin-pick sound, it's probably as much down to not wanting to change their picking motion after who knows how many years of playing a certain way.

[JeffD]

The stiffness of the pick is just one aspect. There is the roundness or pointyness of the shape, the type of bevel on the edge, all these things make a difference in both the sound and the playability.

I would never make a pick decision based on stiffness alone. The whole thing has to work for me.

[michaelpthompson]

Brent Hutto: A thick pick does not work for all styles
Jim Broyles: A thick pick works fine for my picking style
Brent Hutto: Not everybody picks the same way you do
Jim Broyles: My father-in-law uses a thin pick and it doesn't sound good

You know, when you read these all in a row, you realize that some people are not really listening.

[Brent Hutto]

I just need to steer clear of technique discussions, whether pick selection or triplets or practicing arpeggios. Those topics have on balance generated much more heat than light.

[Paul Kotapish]

My perception is that it's easier to get a fatter, warmer tone with a thicker pick, but that it will not be quite as loud as a slightly thinner, more flexible plectrum.

I use the big triangular Wegens TF-140s, too, and they are a good compromise for me. I think I get a bit more volume out of a Tortex .88 triangle, but I suspect that is because I'm actually getting more highs out of those picks, which cuts through and sounds louder over all.

I've hear great players get great tone and volume with all manner of picks, so there's no single magic bullet, and it's all a compromise.

One's sound will be the sum of one's limitations and one's ability to adapt in quest of the personal ideal.

[Jim Broyles]

Edit. Changed mind about responding.

[Denny Gies]

Count me in on the heavy pick side. I find both the tone and the volume are better, for me at least, with a heavier pick.

[Jim Broyles]

My perception is that it's easier to get a fatter, warmer tone with a thicker pick, but that it will not be quite as loud as a slightly thinner, more flexible plectrum.

I use the big triangular Wegens TF-140s, too, and they are a good compromise for me. I think I get a bit more volume out of a Tortex .88 triangle, but I suspect that is because I'm actually getting more highs out of those picks, which cuts through and sounds louder over all.

I've hear great players get great tone and volume with all manner of picks, so there's no single magic bullet, and it's all a compromise.

One's sound will be the sum of one's limitations and one's ability to adapt in quest of the personal ideal.

Depends on the pick material. Thickness being about equal, celluloid is warmer than Ultex, but other hard materials like ivory or bone are definitely not what I would call warm even if they are thicker. Material like the D'Andrea ProPlecs is too soft even though they are stiff. To me they dig into the strings (or the strings dig into them?) and mute the sound. Same with Dawg picks. I think GG's have about the same tone as Fender heavies or even extra heavy because they are celluloid. The Dunlop Big Stubby 3.0 is pretty bright even though it is pretty fat. I don't know how anyone hears a thinner pick as louder. Must be my ears.

[Jim Broyles]

Right Jeff. Material too, maybe even foremost.

[Kevin K]

Finding the right combination is key, string gauge, pick thickness and style and your plaing both right and left hand. I believe the thicker the pick you can make work is what you should go with for better tone but going too thick will cause all to suffer just as much as going too thin. No true one size fits all.

[John Ritchhart]

Well, it's a big jump from a fender medium to Golden Gates, Dawg picks, etc. There's lots in between. I used fender heavy's for several years before switching to tortis. I experimented with lots of different ones and ended up with a plethora of plectrums in my case compartment. I have given these all away to people over the years who found one they liked in my case. It made for some good karma and happy fellow pickers.

[Wes Curl]

:mandosmileyI can't help but like the Dunlop 207 pick. It is thick enough for the volume issue, and it has a rounded tip that helps my tremelo, plus it is made of some kind of non-slip material. I "Never' lose it while playing, even in the S.Tx. heat.

[Paul Cowham]

I agree with the posters who said that they prefer a heavy pick, I personally use Dawg picks.

That said, I've heard that Jimmy Gaudreau uses a light pick and it obviously works well for him. Dagger Gordon uses a fairly light pick and I can speak from first hand experience that he gets a great sound (with plenty of volume) out of his mandolin - just goes to show that one size doesn't fit all. I also suspect that by and large, "celtic" players tend to uses lighter picks than bluegrassers...

[Mandobart]

When I started I was using my guitar picks, .73 Dunlops, cause that's what I had. The longer I play mandolin family instruments (3 years now) the heavier I like my pick. I went from 1.0 to 1.5 to 2.0 mm. Don't really care for the Big Stubbies, though. My current favorite is the Wegen M150 (1.5 mm). I also use the Golden Gate at times, but the sound seems more muted. I also like 2.0 mm Dunlop Tortex or ultex or whatever they are (purple color) and gators (black). I use the rounded (not pointy) ends on these last two guitar shaped picks. I've started drilling 3 - 4 1/8" dia. holes in the center of my picks; improves the grip and reduces tendency to rotate. I use these same picks on all my mando instruments, but I'm likely to use any one pick on any of these instruments at any particular time. I don't use a different pick on each instrument.

I've also found pick material to be a huge variable. I test drove some Clayton Exotics a while back. Very comfortable to hold and grip, hard and thick. One was horn, one was a tropical hardwood, and one was coconut shell. They all sounded too clicky, to me.