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Thread: Why 2-points?

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    Default Why 2-points?

    I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but I am still a relative newcomer to mandolin. I am still trying to understand why players of certain genres of music gravitate towards certain mandolin styles. It seems that F style is the Bluegrass choice, while A style is often the choice for folk, old time, Celtic, etc. Even though many have voiced the opinion on this forum that the scroll of an F style doesn't really contribute to the sound quality. This viewpoint would imply that A style CAN be used for BG. And the F style choice for BG is simply a tradition (due to the "Monroe effect"?) or a personal choice based on a preference for the appearance.

    Now I am puzzled by 2 points. I have never played one, or even seen one in person. But based on pictures I've seen they don't look that much different than a regular A style. Are they that much different? Do the points make a sound difference, or is it like the scroll on F style, mostly for looks? The ones I've seen sure are pretty. And it seems like they are the mandolin of choice for jazz. Why is that? Like I say, I'm just curious and still trying to sort out this big wide world of mandolins.

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    Moderator JEStanek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    No more difference in a 2 Pointer vs an F or an A than an F or an A... that is to say, if from the same builder with same materials and construction (except for points and scrolls) the sound variation won't be significant if the holes and neck join are the same.

    I just dig their look, myself.

    Jamie
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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    well an F is not that much different than an A ,3 blocks of wood added , but you are speaking of Looks .

    Sound is what you hear when it's in your lap. the player makes the music on what they have. all the same notes.

    Individual Instruments have a variety of sounds , because they are made of Wood , a natural material.
    and they hav variations in building, because the hands are not a machine, assembling them.

    the Points are certainly a lot easier to inlay the binding on than the scroll..
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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Just a different variety of ornamentation, no real acoustic implications. There are other silhouettes as well: reverse scroll, three-point F-models, body shapes like the Bacon Artist "four-point" (copied by the new Eastman DGM-2), Harmony "batwings," "harp mandolins" with large "horns" on the body, and even more variants (check out this Shutt "Professional").

    I think the association of two-points with jazz mandolin, may reflect the influence of "Jethro" Burns and his Gibson A-5, just as the prevalence of F-models in bluegrass owes much to Monroe's Lloyd Loar F-5.
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    Mandogenerator Mike Black's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Just like the F-style has the Monroe effect. The 2-point has the Jethro effect.


    Since Jethro Burns played jazz on a 2-point...
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Black View Post
    Just like the F-style has the Monroe effect. The 2-point has the Jethro effect.
    ..
    I could use a little of that Jethro effect. Heck, if it would work I would even wear the blazer.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    I just like the look of the F-Style. But in the end it is all about sound and playability. When I first started I got to choose between an Ibanez F-Style or and Ibanez A-Style. I had my heart set on the F, but my fingers told me my heart was wrong. I went with the A. But once I was good enough to get a better mando, I went with an F.

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    Fred Gilmartin Fred G's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    One thing to think about is that when a builder is building an instrument they can "voice" the instrument a certain way. When they talk about a new F5 sounding like "someone's" loar, for instance. That might make it more suitable for bluegrass. If someone makes a 2 - point now, they may voice it like Jethros therefore making it more suitable for jazz.

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    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    ,
    The 2-point has the Jethro effect.
    so where are the musical comedy duets? that was Mr Burns Bread and Butter,
    food on the table, make the house payments RCA recordings, gig ,
    with Homer Haynes for decades..

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    Registered User Toycona's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    I fell in love with the look of a two pointer a few years ago when I met Austin Clark at the Healdsburg Guitar Festival. His work is stunning, but out of my price range. I eventually bought this Manndolin from Jonathan Mann. I really love it. It has plenty of chop but still a sweet 'hum', which suits me.

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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Not all 2 Pointers are Jazz Boxes. Consider the Lyon and Healy 2 pointers in Symetrical and Asymetrical configurations from the teens/20s This example from Gruhn's website. Incredibly elegant and the slightly shorter scaled model is a great fit in the classical setting.



    I think the Jazz vibe comes from Jethro (even if there aren't a million Jazz mando bands popping up now) who may have earned plenty of corny corn money but was a consumate jazz man to boot. Also I think the jazz vibe is in part due to the Pheonix design. This two point vibe is perpetuated by the great Don Stiernberg. IIRC Sam Bush has one of Jethro's old 2 pointers. There is the Rigel CT100 two pointer as well.

    Do you need a 2 pointer to play jazz? Nope. But I feel hep when I play mine.

    Jamie
    There are two things to aim at in life: first, to get what you want; and, after that, to enjoy it. Only the wisest of mankind achieve the second. Logan Pearsall Smith, 1865 - 1946

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    Plank Spanker outdoors4me's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    I just think they are sexy critters!

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    Registered User Rodney Riley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    I want 'em, I want 'em, I want 'ern ALL... I've got an A, i've got an F, and a Godin... Two pointers...sweet! Falling in love with the Kay look... Bowl back 'cause my father-in-law has one... Mando bird, Yes! Oh! MAS MAS MAS... Please please please please pleeaase...

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    Registered User Nonprophet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    How many points a mandolin has really has much more to do with aesthetics than with tone--tone comes from the materials, the sound holes, the bracing/tone bars, and the builder.

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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    For me it's the most beautiful of the shapes.

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    Mandolin Botherer Shelagh Moore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    For me it's simply the most beautiful of the shapes:

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    Registered User tkdboyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Slightly off topic but my first guitar was a early 60's Melody Maker, the double cut-away model. Liked it so much I bought one of the Gibson Joan Jett Models.

    Given half a chance to get a mandolin that looks like it I most like likely will have one...sounds like a good emando project!

    Always liked the liked the 2 pointers. That Lyon and Healy that Jamie posted above is absolutely gorgeous!

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    Registered User MandoNicity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Because chicks dig two-pointers!

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    Registered User f5loar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    I always liked the 2 pointer that Randy Wood built custom for Clarence White which I think brother Roland still owns. Can anyone post a photo of that one? Also the 2 pointer solid body Gibson EM200 Florentines have to be the all time best electric mandolin ever made.

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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Thank you to everybody who satisfied my curiosity on this topic. It is interesting to me that players in certain genres have a tendency to choose certain mandolin types- F for Bluegrass, A for folk/oldtime, flat top for Celtic, 2-point for jazz... but in reality it seems that folks shouldn't be afraid to break the mold either. 2 point for BG? Why not? And another poster says they can be good for classical too. Those of you who posted pictures sure do have some BEAUTIFUL instruments! My personal favorite is the back and the scroll headstock on that Lyon and Healy! If it sounds as good as it looks it must really be something.

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    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    By the way, I'm assuming everybody knows that his name was Kenneth Burns, and that "Jethro" was a stage name he took for his comedy act with Henry "Homer" Haynes. However, Kenneth "Jethro" Burns did no PBS documentaries.

    And Louis Jones wasn't really a "Grandpa" when he stuck on a fake mustache in his early 20's to adopt an elderly stage "persona." He did grow into the part, though. And "Uncle" Dave Macon had real nieces and nephews.

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    Work in Progress Ed Goist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    multidon, FYI - here is another thread that has pics of many 2-Points.
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    George Wilson GRW3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Funny you should mention Jethro...

    One story is that he is the reason for the two point mandolin. It seems he was playing a particularly blistering version of 'Tico Tico' and went blasting up the neck. Well Ol' Jethro was a neck cradler and when, during one hot strain, he went blasting up the neck and he jammed his thumb firmly into the scroll.

    No amount of force could persuade it to come out so he headed to the emergency room. The head doc was a highly awarded emergency specialist but he wanted to be Bill Monroe. When he saw that it was a Loar, like Bill's, the doctor suggested amputating his thumb so it could be picked out in pieces without damaging the instrument. Surprisingly, Jethro demurred.

    Jethro then told him it was just a copy, made in the factory of his brother-in-law - Chet Atkins. (As a producer of country music, Chet was very frugal and needed a way to avoid paying high dollars for Martin or Gibson. Interestingly they only copied the mandolins exactly because mandolin players can read.) Still, it was a nice instrument and he suggest using a high quality band saw so it could be put back together fairly well.

    When queried the doc did say "Yes, it might sever a tendon" and Jethro selfishly said no. With the stupid Hippocratic oath in play the doc actually had to destroy the scroll to get the thumb out. He was some PO'd when he found out Jethro lied and it actually was a Loar like Bill's.

    Jethro took the damaged mandolin to Gibson to see if they could fix it. They just looked dumbfounded and said "NO, why didn't you just take a fire poker to it while you were at it?" They told him they would build him a new mandolin. (The service manager stripped the useable parts off and took it home as a toy for the kid his wife was baby sitting, Bruce Weber. They became like second parents to Bruce with the only serious incident being when he broke the neck off the mandolin toy and bolted it back in place instead of splicing in a new dove tail joint.)

    So Gibson had to build him a new mandolin. They suggested an A model but Jethro said "Heck No, I don't play folk music!" They didn't want to build any new fixtures for product line that was more of a hobby than a business so they decided to use the treble side point from the F5. After a week of meetings, somebody said "Eureka (strong words in Kalamazoo) let's just put another point on the other side! We'll call it a Two-Point!" In the meetings, they also decided that f-holes were too dangerous for a jazzy player and changed that to an oval hole. Their lawyers advised them that they should finish the mandolin in red to warn people that Jethro was self destructive and to keep their distance. Thus Jethro's red oval hole two point.

    At least that's what I heard...

    But I also heard an alternate tail of bumbling and the making of lemonade out of lemons. Gibson had an excellent but poorly organized luthier working in the mandolin department. He also had problems driven by excessive speculation of company business practices. At the time of the story he was wondering why they gave away their good mandolins to 'stars' but charged the public full retail for the ones they made out of birch and lito'd Bakelite. Anyway, he was working on two mandolins at once and intermixing the parts as usual.

    His boss told people that he liked to make the best match of parts for each mandolin. This was not true, he just mixed them together and used the first one he could find for any assembly step. Anyway, after finishing the first mandolin he discovered he was short of scroll parts for the second one. Not wanting to face the wrath of accounting for checking out more scroll parts he decided to improvise. He had the block where the scroll turns out and it was pretty much identical to the one used for the treble point. He decided to make a symmetrical point to match the normal one. Needing something to fill in the fixture, he hung back one night an sawed a quarter out of a Mastertone banjo resonator.

    He built the two point mandolin. He picked it up to compare to the normal f style mandolin he had just finished. That's when he found the missing scroll parts - they were all in the 'scroll-less' scroll of the first mandolin. It was just a scroll shaped blob on the bass side of the mandolin. (You can see a picture of it in the "Mandolin Oddiities" thread in the Post a Picture of Your Mandolin section.) Fortunately, he was on time for delivery to stock, the only metric important to the accountant luthiers who ran the shop.

    Everything would have been fine, as Gibson customers are just thrilled to get their mandolin on time (factory standard one year late) even if they ordered a banjo. He was very disappointed when the two point was an aesthetic hit and people wanted more of them. This meant he would have to build a complete fixture because he had thrown away the part he had used to patch the fixture. (His best friend, the banjo mechanic, was inordinately upset that someone had cut up an inlaid resonator.) Jethro showed up and said he wanted a red one (sigh) with an oval hole (double sigh). He tried to persuade him to have his brother-in-law make one in his instrument factory but Jethro said Chet was too tied up in a big bee hive / pompadour project at the time. "While you're at it" he said "make it red."
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    Grasslander B. T. Walker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Quote Originally Posted by JEStanek View Post
    I just dig their look, myself.
    Jamie got it right off the bat. They do look cool, whatever music you're playing.
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    Default Re: Why 2-points?

    Allen,
    Perhaps not a "documentary", but Jethro was on a show featuring him called "Jethro and Friends", made by the PBS affiliate in St Paul Minnesota in 1983. The producer was Kathy Reilly. The "friends" included Chet Atkins, Steve Goodman, and Jethro's son Johnny.
    Some of the tunes are on YouTube...

    Two-points as "jazz" mandolins? I think that comes from the people selling mandolins, as in "buy this and get that Jethro vibe"..
    I do use a two-point, and it's red, something of a tribute to my hero, but jazz on a mandolin is determined by the notes played.
    Paul Glasse uses a Monteleone style B. Will Patton a Gibson A.Aaron Weinstein a Red Diamond F. Jason Anick, Jason Roberts on electric mandolins. Hamilton de Holanda the 10 string bandolim. Brian Oberlin a Collings varnish MF5. Scott Tichenor a Nugget F5.
    John McGann an octave mandolin or slanted fret 10 string. Don Julin a Gibson a or Godin electric or Northfield F..And so on.

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