Applying Carl Flesch's Violin Scales to Mandolin

[JonZ]

I was looking at Carl Flesch's violin scales, and was puzzled by the fingerings. I was wondering if there was something essentially violinistic about them that did not translate to mandolin.

For example, on the first C scale, one starts with the first finger on C on the fourth string, playing up to E, then shifting down to F on the third string, on which the rest of the scale is played.

I don't understand the reason for the fingering being set up so you have to shift the first finger back as you move up to the third string. (This is done in the "original" and "alternate" fingerings provided.)

Would learning these fingerings make sense for mandolin, or is there a particularly violinistic (violiny?) reason for playing them in this way that does not apply to mandolin, such as bowing or maintaining intonation?

I hope this does not dredge up any bad memories for violin players out there.

[SincereCorgi]

I'm curious about this, too– it reminds me of how some of the violin sonatas I've played have the weirdest fingering suggestions.

[JonZ]

My guess is that the first finger is your reference point for getting the other fingers in the right place.

[TheMandoKit]

My violin teacher always had me start the C scale on the second finger, to avoid the shift to go to the F. I used the Flesch book for scales too, but she disagreed with the fingerings on a few of the scales.

I always thought scale fingerings on violin were weird. Don't even get me started on the "no open strings" thing.

[Ted Eschliman]

Two things will make the violin finger slightly differently, a tendency to closed fingerings (can't vibrato an open string and the tone is more consistent), and the lack of frets. The latter makes the player far more dependent on "reference" fingerings. Space is judged by the distance in fingers, not frets. These two things alone make you think entirely differently about the instrument. Don't even get started talking about that awful bow...

[Maddie Witler]

I have actually worked through a good portion of the Flesch violin book, and I did it while taking lessons from Evan Marshall who helped get me in the right direction fingering wise. For the most part, I just ignore the fingering suggestions in the book. I feel that the mandolin should be approached as a completely different instrument from the violin, especially when it comes to fingering. In regards to two and three octave scales, I almost always start in first position. For two octave scales, I'll shift on the E string to reach the high C. For three octaves I'll usually start my shifting earlier, usually on the A string.

One of the best sources available that I've found for studying scale fingerings on the mandolin is Chris Thile's "Essential Techniques for the Mandolin" video. There's a section where he basically shows how to finger the Flesch (although he doesn't refer to the name) 3 octave scales and arpeggios. He only goes from G to C, but he gives enough information for one to derive the fingerings for just about every other key.

The main thing that I've found is that practicality should be the number one factor in decisions about fingering. Most mandolin players tend to hang around in first position, so it would behoove you to be familiar with your scales starting in first position.

[Patrick Gunning]

If you want those Thile fingerings that piratebob13 suggested, they're tabbed out and on Mandozine in tabledit form.

[JonZ]

Working through those scales is quite an undertaking. Did you get much out of it, Piratebob13?

I didn't make the connection between Flesch and Thile's exercises.

So, to translate to mandolin: leave in open strings where appropriate; start from whichever finger makes sense. Anything else?

Could be a song there: The Little Girl and the Awful Bow.

(Don't even get me started on "fingering the Flesch".)

[farmerjones]

On my mandolin the pinky is a reach, as Ted said, because you gotta get over the fret, and you gotta hold two strings down. Sure, maybe my mando holding posture isn't Mike Marshall approved, but i don't get the work he does.
On a fiddle/violin i often use that pinky and the next(adjacent) string index finger unison double stop. In fact that's sort of a Kenny Baker thing, if you followed him. Otherwise, i mostly play fiddle using Jazzmando's FFCP method. I didn't know it at the time i learnt it, but that's essentially what it is. If you use FFCP you've always got your double stop. That too is sorta advanced fiddle technique, always using double stops.
Doublestop = half of a mandolin chord. So right there, in mathematical evidence: violin/fiddle is half as hard to play as a mandolin. OR, twice as easy.

[JonZ]

Come to think of it, I think I heard the little girl and the awful bow play at one of my kids recitals.