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Thread: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

  1. #1
    man about town Markus's Avatar
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    Default Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    I've had my current mandolin for a year, and over time have experimented with strings, played with my bridge height a little to adjust seasonal/string/etc changes.

    Recently I've been having minor buzzing on the G and D strings, down on the lower frets - despite having the bridge adjusted fairly high and up-the-neck action a little higher than I like.

    After quite a bit of reading everything I could get my hands on, it seemed as if adding a little relief to the neck would address this issue. Checking with my manfacturer [Breedlove] they seemed to suggest that with knowledge, care, patience, and a 1/4" tool ... one could cautiously do this oneself.

    So I carefully loosened it by less than 1/8 of a turn. Gave it overnight, noticed that there was much more relief on the lowest frets [as hoped] and then turned my attention to the bridge which could now be lowered.

    After lowering it a generous amount, three times, I was able get it it `just right' .... this is how I remember this mandolin first playing. It's almost like the strings are floppy, I have to lay my fingers on the fretboard instead of actively push strings. Looking at it after, I was shocked at how the little bridge adjustments added up and while not appearing to moved one direction significantly over time.

    It's almost unbelievable at how better it plays ... and it was quite playable before, I got a compliment on how easily it played just a few months ago. I am not shocked in it's first year, with seasonal cycles + 1000 hours play that things needed a tweak ... though a few weeks ago it seemed `fine enough'.

    I'm certainly not encouraging anyone to go wild experimenting with this ... you can fairly destroy your mandolin doing the wrong thing or being excessive [or mess it up so now you HAVE to bring it to a skilled luthier to restore it's playability]. Frankly, this experience has me looking into learning more on instrument maintenance/repair, given the positive results ... so that I can keep this instrument playing like this forever with only rare trips to a setup wizard.

    If you find your mandolin just doesn't seem to play the same as it used to ... consider having someone look at the truss rod.

    A big thanks to the archives and builders/members here whose collective wisdom [combined with Frank Ford, guitar sites, etc] taught me how to do this appropriately. I'm inspired to learn more ...

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    Registered Muser dang's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Emphasis on "how to do this appropriately,' not a project for the uninformed!
    I should be pickin' rather than postin'

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    My Weber "Fern" benefited greatly by doing just the opposite,tightening the truss rod up by a tiny amount. The action was fine,but the additional volume that such a tiny adjustment made was incredible,
    Ivan
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    Phylum Octochordata Mike Bromley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by dang View Post
    Emphasis on "how to do this appropriately,' not a project for the uninformed!
    But, barring a total hack job, not irreversible!
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    Fingers of Concrete ccravens's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    I assume that "relief" means turning the truss rod to the left, and "tightening" turning to the right?
    Right?
    Chris Cravens

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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    I just did this as well, carefully following the instructions on the Weber website which is quite informative and detailed on this and many other subjects regarding the care and feeding of your instrument.

    http://www.soundtoearth.com/faq.php?cat=3

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    Registered User Ivan Kelsall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Mmmmm ! - "Care & Feeding " - Well there wasn't much about 'feeding' on the page that i saw.I have to assume that they mean 'cleaning & polishing' ??. I did notice that when it comes to setting the 'action. they say 'when the neck is flat'. As i know from having contacted Weber when i first got mine,they adjust the truss rod so there's very little or NO relief in the neck.They told me that the scale length is so short,that they think that there's no real need for neck relief. I suppose as in all things,that it's a matter of personal preference,
    Ivan
    Weber F-5 'Fern'.
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    Tokai - 'Tele-alike'.
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by ccravens View Post
    I assume that "relief" means turning the truss rod to the left, and "tightening" turning to the right?
    Right?
    Some definitions:

    "Relief": How you feel upon learning that your new $3,000 instrument is supposed to have a bent neck!

    "Righty tighty, lefty loosey": Most screws & nuts tighten when turned clockwise, or right at the top, and loosen counter-clockwise.

    - Loosening the trussrod allows the strings to pull the neck into relief, a forward bow that follows the curve of the vibrating stings, however slight that may be.
    - Tightening the trussrod reduces relief, and yet more tightening can cause back-bow.

    Picture the curve of a turning jump-rope; vibrating strings do the same thing, just less pronounced. Theoretically, that slight curvature / relief of the neck allows the strings to be closer to the fretboard all the way up the neck than if it were absolutely straight.

    Since most instruments' relief, or lack thereof, WILL change over time due to stress, wear, temperature, humidity, age, etc., it's really worth knowing how to adjust yourself. And the fact that it's fully reversable (as opposed to, say, filing down the nut slots) means there's relatively little risk.
    Last edited by EdHanrahan; Sep-05-2011 at 5:19am. Reason: spell
    - Ed

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    I put just enough relief in the neck so it can change slightly due to weather or whatever and not accidentally end up "less than zero" so to speak. I'd probably like the way it plays alright with a dead-flat neck but then it would only have to shift slightly to end up with negative relief (slight back bow) which we not be good at all.

    So I normally adjust it to about 0.002"-0.003" or so. Tough to measure exactly such a small gap but basically where a 0.002" feeler gauge slides in and out cleanly.

    But the cost of a flat neck is you might not be able to dial down the 12th fret action those last few thousandths. I'm happy enough somewhere in the 0.050"-0.060" range with floppy flatwound strings so flat works fine for the relief.
    The first man who whistled
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  10. #10
    man about town Markus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Thanks for that explanation, Ed. It helps the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post
    I put just enough relief in the neck so it can change slightly due to weather or whatever and not accidentally end up "less than zero" so to speak.
    Exactly my purpose here, really. This season must be a sort of `low tide' when I need a little relief ... midwinter might require the opposite 1/16 of a turn.

    This mandolin is 18 months old, and the last 12 months played daily, taken to desert Arizona and Carolina coast. While I protect it in such wet/dry conditions and kept in humidified case in deepest winter ... it lives in my living room, hung on the wall safe from toddler hands most months of the year.

    I would be shocked if it was the same as first set up after the first full year of it's life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brent Hutto View Post
    But the cost of a flat neck is you might not be able to dial down the 12th fret action those last few thousandths. I'm happy enough somewhere in the 0.050"-0.060" range with floppy flatwound strings so flat works fine for the relief.
    How playable it is up the neck certainly is part of the equation there, I was surprised at how much `too flat' required a high bridge.

    Seems a little quieter ... it will be interesting to see how loud I am tonight when I play an open mic with bluegrassers. Then again, I have a Tonegard for that purpose [might be your old one, Brent, via Lou].

    It might be less a cannon in that context [which is fine, I'm loud enough], but when I play rock and roll Tuesday night plugged in I will be pleased with the fact the 12 fret action feels like it dropped 0.020" [probably dropped a quarter of that].

    Is there a general guide to setup work [hardcopy, not online] that people use?
    I'm tempted to take a look at my guitar now ....

  11. #11
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    Post Re: Just a little turn of the truss rod ... Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus View Post
    Is there a general guide to setup work [hardcopy, not online] that people use?
    I'm tempted to take a look at my guitar now ....
    Last answer first: After messing with the mandolin's tiny parts & tolerances, adjusting a guitar will seem pretty easy. Sort of like walking a diving board compared to walking a tightrope!

    Do note that most folks here were guitar players first and, I suspect, guitar fixers before they were mandolin fixers.

    That said, the only print references for mandolin set-up that I'm aware of are those geared toward actually building one, where setup is the last step. The best is probably Roger Siminoff's book; he's often on the Cafe and easy to find on-line (even if I don't yet have it myself).

    THAT said, most guitar-oriented books will serve well for mandolin, as long as you observe that archtop instruments (few guitars, most mandolins) have complications over the typical Martin-style flat-top. Personally, I had digested the Guitar Player's Repair Guide, among others, plus a bunch of Dan Erlewine videos, long before I got into mandolin. You might check for books & videos at StewMac.com

    The most often referenced "bible" for both guitar and mandolin is on-line only, being Frank Ford's Frets.com. It's accurate, complete, well illustrated, fun to read, and he adds to it continually. The only minor complication can be finding the general category that your current issue falls under: is it a repair, or an adjustment, or maybe a construction technique? But they're all fun to read and very educational!

    Good luck!
    - Ed

    "Then one day we weren't as young as before
    Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
    But by all those roads, my friend, we've travelled down
    I'm a better man for just the knowin' of you."
    - Ian Tyson

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