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Thread: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

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    Default Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    My first post here for quite some time, and I really appreciate your input cause this definitely pushes me out of my comfort zone:

    I´m thinking about recording a CD with Mandolin (me) in a duo or trio setting with different people. All acoustic instruments (guitar, bass, harp, accordion, flute...), a couple of vocals. The people I want to work with live all over the place so most of the time I will travel or they come to my place. The concept is, never more than 3 instruments on one track, mostly two.

    I chose not to record with a laptop because I am technically challenged and for some reason, these things eat up all my time and NOTHING gets recorded!

    My plan is to record everything as good as I can fast and easy and then bring it to the studion for editing, mixing and mastering. I will only do the recording, otherwise this thing will never be finished!

    So I was looking at the Alesis HD24 or HD24XR: http://www.alesis.com/hd24

    My plan was to use this and a couple of decent mikes and hit it off - maybe record a rythm track and then have two or three people play live and do some punch ins if required (or just redo the take), maybe record some vocals afterwards. Of course there are other issues, like room and separation and headphone monitoring, but as far as recording, can I expect good results that way or would I need other outboard equipment I didn´t think of?

    Are there other approaches you would recommend?

    Thanks!
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    The HD24 has no microphone preamps, so you will need a mixer or multiple channels of mic preamps to record with it. With a mixer, you could use some of the channels for playback from the HD24 so you could do overdubs, so a mixer might be your best bet.
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Darn! I guess, a live mixer (Mackie) will probably not do, as the quality of the preamps and the other components is crucial. So that would set me back another 1000 $ or even more? Any other options?
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    In my experience, Mackie preamps are fine for the type of work you're proposing. They're not as nice as some high-end standalone mic pres, but they do a good job. IMHO, bigger problems in your signal chain are likely to be (a) the acoustic quality of the room you're recording in, (b) mike placement (and, especially, "bleed" between the mikes when recording two or more instruments simultaneously), and (c) the quality of your mikes.
    EdSherry

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    "So that would set me back another 1000 $ or even more? Any other options?"

    I'd say, forget about a hard disk recorder and do it the way just about everyone else is doing these days -- computer, interface, mics.

    With the right interface and software, you won't be wasting all your time trying to figure out how to get it to work.

    I'd suggest a Steinberg MR-816 interface -- works beautifully with Cubase, an integrated hardware/software package. It has 8 XLR inputs and good mic preamps.

    - John

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Albert View Post

    I'd say, forget about a hard disk recorder and do it the way just about everyone else is doing these days -- computer, interface, mics.

    With the right interface and software, you won't be wasting all your time trying to figure out how to get it to work.
    Well, I´m not ruling out going that way - but I tried to set up audacity on my laptop, and sometimes it would work, sometimes not. Sometimes it would crash, sometimes not. I just found that it took me an hour to check everything (not talking about mikes, just the computer). Never worked with cubase though. I guess it would be wise to have a dedicated laptop for recording and music applications only - my girlfriend would surely appreciate. So in that case would any laptop do or are there any specific requirements (soundcard or other)? These questions might sound a bit dumb, but I never really ventured far in these technical realms.

    Of course, mikes, rooms and separation are another issue. But if I only want to record 1 or 2 pieces at a time and I´m going to record them live and rule out punch ins (unless everybody punches in), I should basically be fine, or am I wrong?

    Rooms could be a problem - if I record in 6 or 7 different rooms (even with the same mikes) will it be possible to achieve sounds that are consistent enough not to sound odd? Or should I stop worrying and just have the nerve to have things sound differently?
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    If you really are just after recording tracks and definitely not into the mixing bit then one possible way to go is to buy a simple Zoom H4N recorder. If mounted to isolate the recorder from vibration the on board mics are good for general XY recording. The best part is you can then get something like an Alice outboard pre-amp and run two external mics in for close mic work on instruments. This will give you four good quality synchronous tracks for every take you do. You can get an optional a remote control and use that to start/stop each take if you're in the thick of things.

    Rather than buying mics for the project why not hire some really decent ones in for the recording days. You'll never get the use to justify buying top quality mics costing a few thousand each, but you can still get to record with their quality if you rent mics and top quality cables.

    The place to spend money is on a really good set of headphones to monitor what you're at, and practice listening to what they tell you. Remember what your hear in those is going to go down on the take. So back-ground traffic or aircraft noise, leaves /rivers or ground-borne vibrations, the refrigerator two rooms away kicking in and out all those will be heard. The advantage of having the Zoom is you can pre-record venues you may be considering then take it away and listen in detail to what they really sound like and compare one to the next. You'll also be able to record jams and gigs at a good quality for general use / quick knock-out CDs / MP3s etc without bothering with any elaborate kit.

    Then treat these recordings as your Archive Masters from which you'll edit or have them edited later.
    Another thing to consider is how you choose the correct metadata protocols to use. Metadata is a fancy word for all the details you use to keep track of what you record. There are so many takes which people never get to use because they didn't take care of this at the outset. You can waste hours which should be productively advancing your project, just because you didn't get the structure right at the outset.
    Eoin



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    its a very very long song Jim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Fostex makes a few 8 and 16 track flash recorders with a couple mic pre-amp choices and phantom power. I've found them to be the easiest to make quality home recordings on. They will export the data to a computer for futher mixing and editing.
    Rooms could be a problem - if I record in 6 or 7 different rooms (even with the same mikes) will it be possible to achieve sounds that are consistent enough not to sound odd? Or should I stop worrying and just have the nerve to have things sound differently?
    Yes, just do it.

    The idea of renting good mics ( borrowing is good too.) is a fine one if such things are available in your area. I've had good luck with shure 57s for instruments and 58s for vocals. I'd love to have some good condensors but even with the cheap mxl I've got its hard too find a place quiet enough to use them. Close micing with a shure or something similar gets the sound into the machine with a minimum of background noise that is usually there in most home recording situations.
    Jim Richmond

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    I am fairly technical, have a technical job and education, though sound recording is not my field. I did some preliminary investigations into a project like you are talking about and I discovered some fundamental truths:

    Every aspect of a recording project is its own hobby. Getting up to speed and becoming reliably proficient at this takes time. Time away from picking.

    There are folks who really really know this stuff and have their basement or spare bedroom all set up, and would love to take on a project, for little or no money, as a way of getting experience and also as a way of verifying their own musical recording theories.

    There are more of these folks than I thought. I don't know about your neck of the woods, but I found two enthusiastic home audio recording people within a short drive. Unknown to each other, both were competant and would make a good product, and knew so much more than I had time to learn.

    My point is that unless recording is an intriguing avocation you want to pursue, (and I can see that, I really can), I would go with someone already set up, and spend the time working on the tunes, the playing, the arrangements, and instrumentation, which to me anyway is the far more fun part.

    Just a thought to stir into the mix.
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus Wutscher View Post
    Darn! I guess, a live mixer (Mackie) will probably not do, as the quality of the preamps and the other components is crucial. So that would set me back another 1000 $ or even more? Any other options?
    Yeah, you can make fine recordings with a Mackie board...

    OK, Google "Tascam DA-38"...

    It's a standalone 8-track digital recorder that is super easy to use, and can be had for a song because everyone is using computers to record...
    If you do go that route, make sure you get a machine with low hours on it....

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    I would go to a recording studio. You'll never get the kind of quality at home that you'll get in a reputable studio. A real recording facility will have the equipment, the space, and the know-how to get you a pro-level product quickly.

    If your goal is to have the ability to record at home and to get into recording as a hobby that's one thing. If your aim is a professional quality recording don't waste your time buying a truck load of consumer gear and learning how to use it. That's a never ending time and money pit which will most likely fail to get you the results you're looking for.

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    I couldn't agree more about not getting distracted by the technology. That really was the basis for the suggestion I made earlier. From Klaus' posts I read he wants to get it in the can cleanly rather than go for top-end production.

    The time issue is a serious one in any recording situation and having others fiddling around while people set up, check-over and rearrange the kit is a sure way to take the edge off any recording situation. There's a real value in getting used to recording though as when you do go for a more professional approach you'll be more in tune with what to expect from and more appreciative of what's involved in the recording engineers job. You'll likely get less frustrated or worried by time ticking by at the start of a recording job and you'll have a more critical ear to bring to the recording session.

    I got distracted by the technology back in the mid-80s, made a career from what I learned, and am only getting back to the music making skills now. Not sure if I would have had more satisfaction out of sticking with the music itself though, who knows?.
    Eoin



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    Registered User tprior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Ok, I have a take...If you are new to recording and are looking to get into a small,fast, good quality recording, I would recommend a small 8 or 16 track workstation that has full USB connectivity for transfer and file backup. Phantom Power would also be a requirement.

    You really need, for what you described , a full package, preamps, inputs, effects,multiple tracks etc...You have decided against a DAW( Laptop) package which is fine, the alternative , my opinion, is a small fully self contained workstation of at least 8 tracks. Yes, the recording quality will be fine, most record in 16/24 bit wav. Once you go down the road of external gear and plug'ins, you are on a different road.

    I have Pro Tools 8 which I use for most projects and E Sessions, but previously the many workstations I owned and used offered everything needed to accomplish the goal. I currently still use a Zoom R16 for many small outboard projects, maybe that would be a consideration for you. 16 tracks, can record up to 8 at a time, on board mics, preamps and phantom power. Also, big, the ability to transfer files one at a time or all at once. Think USB /SD card here ! NO HARD DRIVE. This unit records in 16/24 bit wav. Not a lot of frills compared to other units but seriously gets the job done. Plus you can take it to the other players, it's small , portable and uses AC power OR batteries ! It does have a small LCD display so you need big eye's !

    Good luck on the project...

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    There is something real cool about recording it yourself. But its a separate hobby. Like tying flies. I buy them from my brother, because tying them myself cuts into my time on the water.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post

    Every aspect of a recording project is its own hobby. Getting up to speed and becoming reliably proficient at this takes time. Time away from picking.

    So true! With my previous bands, I always recorded in the studio, and if I was in a band now, I wouldn´t give homerecording a second thought - too much hassle for lo-fi results!

    As you realised by now, I´m not a technical avid person, which doesn´t help either

    But the duo setting makes it seem easier - and I´m travelling. Part of the idea is visiting people, record one or two songs over a weekend (prepared in advance, of course) and have a nice time.

    Does anybody have any axperience with this recorder: http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/produ...recorders/r24/ ?
    it can record 6 tracks simultaniousely (with phantom power), which would be well enough for me - waht do you think?
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    The Zoom R16 and R24 can record 8 tracks simultaneously...and yes , as I mentioned above, I use an R16 now and then. It's a fine unit, not a lot of frills but can get the job done. The portability and the ability to transfer files is huge. It uses an SD card rather than a hard drive. Do not expect it to have all the bells and whistles that other workstations have, it is more basic but it does have everything you need to do exactly as you defined above. 8 Recording tracks at a time, preamps, phantom power on 2 tracks only, on board mics, effects, portability and the ability to transfer files one at a time or all at once. For the money the R16 and R24 are a hard to beat.

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    First off, although I'm very fluent with computer recording and editing, I can relate to Klaus wanting to keep things as simple as possible on the capture side. That's basically where I'm going with my remote recording rig; no computers, all hardware.

    Klaus, if you don't need an overdub function, just straight capture and then mixdown later on, then you might want to consider the Tascam DR-680. It records six tracks analog, 2 more if you have a digital input but it's basically a six track recorder.

    All six analog inputs have surprisingly good, clean mic preamps -- better than the lower-cost Zoom and Tascam "mini studio" recorders mentioned in the thread. I use my DR-680 mostly in line-input mode, feeding it from a small rack of higher-end mic preamps, but the built-in preamps are good enough that I don't hesitate to use them for situations where I need to go ultra-portable, or where there isn't AC power. The A/D conversion quality is excellent. All six preamps can provide 48v. phantom power too. It runs off AC or battery, although the battery life drops fast if you're using phantom power on more than 2 channels. It's basically just a no-nonsense field recorder, aimed at the video and film production world like the much more expensive ($6,000+) Nagra and Sound Devices field recorders.

    The DR-680 is a bit more expensive than the mini-studio recorders mentioned here, but the HD24 you mentioned in the original post isn't cheap either. The HD24 is also discontinued, so you'd have to find a NOS or used one.

    Also, keep in mind that neither the DR-680 or HD24 will allow overdubbing on pre-recorded material. They're for pure capture, and later editing/mixdown. I like working that way -- recording multiple takes, and then editing from different takes to fix a flubbed note if necessary (although we try to avoid that). It's a simple, easy way to record if you're working with people who are well-rehearsed, have a chance of nailing the music in one of several takes, and who don't need to assemble music "from the ground up" with multiple overdubs, like the more modern pop-based recording style.

    Note: if you use something like this, or even if you fall back on the HD24 idea, you won't be able to avoid editing, mixing, and mastering the resulting files on a computer. If you're not comfortable with that end of things, I'd suggest finding a good mixer and mastering person to work with.

    P.S. JeffD is right about this whole recording thing being a separate hobby, profession, or financial black hole in some cases. Still, capturing a great performance is a noble goal. And it beats some hobbies, like golf.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Hi I'm new here but in regards to recording and home studios I'm fairly well versed.
    For everyone who puts down home recording , to put this as delicately as possible... you don't know what you are talking about.

    Ive worked with guys who have outstanding results using old computers and decent sound cards. They cant run all the fx at once or process as many channels at once but they get great recordings using the original Sonar. That program is 8-10 years old and recording tech has grown light years since then. It depends on the individual. If you are not dealing with MIDI ( you are not) the recording process is pretty straightforward.
    I dumped my 16 track Akai recorder and went with the PC. The level of flexibility that can be had is mind boggling. Yeah It takes time to learn all those functions but it took me just as much time to learn to use the Akai standalone unit I sold.
    The difference was that it is much easier to punch in, or do any editing functions using a computer. Mixing is better on a PC. The effects ( compression, eq, convolution reverb)are outstanding on a pc.
    There is a middle ground. Record at home, save your tracks, bring them to a studio for mastering and final mixdown. it is still cheaper than paying for all the recording time in a studio.
    I would not reject the idea of PC home studio recording.
    I use a mackie 1640 firewire mixing board going into a PC. I also have an older computer that I can still use but I use it primarily as a soft synth, it has 2 Motu digital interfaces that can be synched via Midi to the main mix. What does that mean, not much except to the people who think Mackie boards cannot be used to record they are mistaken.
    Other than just walking into a studio and shelling out the bucks all of this takes some time to get used to. and like another post suggested, there are probably people in your area who have all the gear and would love to do a project like this for a very reasonable fee. my bud Bob in PA does this for people that are referred to him, he doesn't like just anyone coming off the street into his home.
    Good luck.

  19. #19
    Laps, Banjos, & Mandos rudy44's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus Wutscher View Post
    Does anybody have any axperience with this recorder: http://www.samsontech.com/zoom/produ...recorders/r24/ ?
    it can record 6 tracks simultaniousely (with phantom power), which would be well enough for me - waht do you think?
    Hi Klaus, I own the R24. I sold my $2K+ DAW and went with this because it does 24 bit audio capture, has 6 channels of phantom, and records 8 simultainious tracks. I could care less bout all of the other things that Zoom tries to tell you it is good for, the only thing I want is reliable audio capture. It's very easy to USB the wav files over to my PC for mixing or other massaging of audio. One of the BEST features is there is very little menu navigating necessary, and I did a simple multitrack recording (using the built-in stereo condenser mics) within 10 minutes of opening the box and without cracking the manual. It's almost as easy to operate as a cassette deck.

    Here's my little portable set-up:

    http://www.banjohangout.org/topic/206260
    rudy44

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    Like A Fine Box Of Wine Big Rig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    I switched from using Cubase to Ableton Live 8, and I've found Live 8 to be a lot easier to record with. I'm running it through a Tascam US-144 usb interface. I've got some stuff I recorded with this setup on my Facebook site below.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Spear...app_2405167945

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    Registered User tprior's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    Correction:

    I noted above with regard to the Zoom recorders having Phantom Power on 2 tracks, I was referring to the R16, the R24 has PP on 6 tracks a noted above. Both fine machines, both can get you where you want to go with excellent results. Both record @44.1 /16 or 24 bit wav. I do use Pro Tools on the PC but with regard to a portable workstation, I would not be without the R16 ( currently own) or the R24 from here on out, amazing performance value for the $$.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    I chose the Fostex MR8 instead of the Zoom. They're both fine. I went with flash instead of a harddrive. No moving parts.
    Sage advice - (maybe just free advice
    Think back to all your favorite/classic recordings. Think back to your favorite songs/tunes. It wasn't the recording quality that stood out, it was the song/tune.
    Conclusion: If you got the goods, you can record it via tin-can telephone, and it will be a classic. Every classic vinyl was laid down on some awful stuff compared to today. Beatle's Abbey Road was what it was because of the songs. Think about any Sun Studios stuff, Django Rhinehart, or Bob Wills recordings. Rant over.

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    Default Re: Making plans (homerecording a CD - advice needed)

    [QUOTE=farmerjones;968547]

    Think back to all your favorite/classic recordings. Think back to your favorite songs/tunes. It wasn't the recording quality that stood out, it was the song/tune.
    Conclusion: If you got the goods, you can record it via tin-can telephone, and it will be a classic.

    Definitely true. But still, I want to get it sound as as I can. The trick is not being carried away with the recording end of it and lose sight of the music. For some reason, I like the idea of using a recorder for the LACK of editing an punch in possibilities. Not being able to do 26 takes and patch together a "best of" those takes feels strangely attractive.
    Who am I and if yes, how many?

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