What do you do with an F-4 Gibson mandolin?

[jmalmsteen]

I love Gibsons, especially vintage Gibson instruments. A Lloyd Loar is a bit out of my budget and I only like F style mandolins. I love the look and sound of the F-4 mandolins but I am not quite sure what you "do" with them as far as what style of music you would play on this style mandolin. I play bluegrass but play some Celtic music on fiddle. On guitar I play the 80's metal distorted version of classical music ala Yngwie Malmsteen so I don't mind classical. Ultimately I would like to play it outside of my living room. So, I am wondering what kind of jam you would bring an F-4 to since it probably wouldn't have enough volume for a bluegrass style jam.

Also, are certain years of F-4 mandolins considered more desirable than other years, for instance one produced when Lloyd Loar was at Gibson even though he did not have much to do with these?
Thanks!

[sunburst]

Also, are certain years of F-4 mandolins considered more desirable than other years, for instance one produced when Lloyd Loar was at Gibson even though he did not have much to do with these?
Thanks!

That pretty much sums it up.

As for what I do with my F4, mostly just leave it there in the case and get it out once in a while to show it to someone... yes, I know, I should sell it...

[Jared Heddinger]

Echoing what I’ve heard elsewhere on the Cafe, I don’t think there are really “standards” for what kind of mandolin to play. Bluegrass players tend to play F-5’s mostly because of the beauty and the fact that Bill Monroe played one. I can’t imagine an F-4 being THAT different unless you had a custom one built and wanted it purposefully different.

Personally, I LOVE F-4’s. I think that when I get beyond the beginner level, and think I deserve an F-style, my major mandolin will be an F-4.

[barney 59]

Play anything---Listen to Jimmy Martin recordings, the mandolin part in many of those recordings was played with an F4. If that isn't Bluegrass what is? Red Rector, all of Andy Statman's early recordings are on oval holed mandolins. I know that there is a current school of thought that only an f holed mandolin projects enough for Bluegrass. I tend to think that maybe it's that some crazy banjo players just can't help playing too loud. People tend to think that the f4's starting about '22 and have truss rods etc.are superior (and are a little more costly) than the earlier versions. They may be a little better but the others are pretty nice just the same, so are f2's for that matter. Loar Era seems to me to be nothing more than a marketing strategy for vintage instruments. Your right, Lloyd Loar didn't have much or anything to do with those mandolins.

[Spruce]

So, I am wondering what kind of jam you would bring an F-4 to since it probably wouldn't have enough volume for a bluegrass style jam.

A good F4 will....

[Peter Kurtze]

ala Yngwie Malmsteen

Forgive my curiosity . . . any relation?

[jmalmsteen]

Forgive my curiosity . . . any relation?

I just admire Yngwie- no relation. I have had Jmalmsteen since I got my first computer many years ago so this is what I am mainly known by so I use it across forums so people who know me will recognize the name.
-Jen

[jmalmsteen]

Play anything---Listen to Jimmy Martin recordings, the mandolin part in many of those recordings was played with an F4. If that isn't Bluegrass what is? Red Rector, all of Andy Statman's early recordings are on oval holed mandolins. I know that there is a current school of thought that only an f holed mandolin projects enough for Bluegrass. I tend to think that maybe it's that some crazy banjo players just can't help playing too loud. People tend to think that the f4's starting about '22 and have truss rods etc.are superior (and are a little more costly) than the earlier versions. They may be a little better but the others are pretty nice just the same, so are f2's for that matter. Loar Era seems to me to be nothing more than a marketing strategy for vintage instruments. Your right, Lloyd Loar didn't have much or anything to do with those mandolins.

Jimmy Martin is of course an inspiration. Thanks for the information about the F-4!

[allenhopkins]

I own an early 1950's F-5, and when I started playing Celtic music more seriously around 1985, I wanted a round-hole instrument with more of a "ring" to it, less of a "bark." So I bought an old (1910 or so) Gibson F-2, the less fancy version of the F-4. I had owned an F-2 back in the 1970's and used it to play bluegrass, but did want the f-hole sound, so traded it on the F-5.

I like the less sharp sound of the round-hole, the way it seems to produce a "rounder" quality. I think you could use an F-4 in bluegrass, though you might have a bit more trouble competing with the overall volume level of a banjo-fiddle-dreadnought guitar band. I think as a general purpose mandolin, for Celtic, folk, jazz, klezmer etc., the F-2 and F-4 are very satisfactory. They have shorter necks, which some find easier to get around on, and I love their graceful proportions and "vintage vibe."

But of course I love all sorts of mandolins, which is why I have dozens of them. So...

[Ivan Kelsall]

''What do you do with a Gibson F-4 Mandolin ?'' - well,if you have one or are likely to get one,get it well set up for tone & playability, then play the living h**l out of it !!,
Ivan

[theCOOP]

I love Gibsons, especially vintage Gibson instruments. A Lloyd Loar is a bit out of my budget and I only like F style mandolins. Thanks!

This just caught me as an odd statement. Do you actually like mandolin music, or just the mandolins? Do you only like F-style mandolin music? I can't tell the difference myself.

I'd be willing to bet that most people here like Gibson mandolins, expecially the (very very expensive), vintage Gibson instruments.

[f5loar]

If the "King" of Blugrass said it was okay to use the F4 who are you to judge? Go for it. In a jam you will get more compliants on having a real Gibson mandolin vs. all those Fake F5 that keep showing up in jams in which their owner think they are real.

[almeriastrings]

Everett Lily...

Often picked a vintage F4. Has a really lovely old blonde finish example.

Here it is in an earlier thread... stunning.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ly-s-3-Pointer

[red7flag]

I am a true lover of F4s and their sound. The issues with grass and lack of presence have already been discussed. I write my own music, which tends to be eclectic in nature. A bit of grass, Celtic, gypsy, cross-picking and fiddle tunes. Other than straight grass tunes, I prefer to play an F4 or my octave mandolin to record. My role is more complimenting other instruments than to cut through them. I really like the sweeter singing voice for most of my music. An F4 is really nice to play old timey also. This is why I have an F4 on order with Gail Hester.

[lmartnla]

You can play anything. Whoever complains about using an F4 would be nuts. I love my F4 (1917) and play it often. Only problem is the short neck, but you don't need to play way up there to have lots of fun and you can use different cord forms up there if ya gotta.
Check out jim Richter playing a vintage F2 on you tube. If he plays anything on it so can you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaHRs...eature=related

ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZmo6q8IKMk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4r56...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2k5O...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSM1P...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN8IycXQ-G4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgJtOmIJ2JQ

[Nick Triesch]

I had a friend who had a 24 Gibson F4 for many years. It was one of the best mandolins I have ever heard. To me, it had the sound of a wonderful vintage snakehead. And you can do a lot with that sound! Nick

[jmalmsteen]

This just caught me as an odd statement. Do you actually like mandolin music, or just the mandolins? Do you only like F-style mandolin music? I can't tell the difference myself.

I'd be willing to bet that most people here like Gibson mandolins, expecially the (very very expensive), vintage Gibson instruments.

I didn't mean to be confusing. I listen to bluegrass. I visually like the F style instruments. The F-4 mandolins are interesting since they are F style and relatively affordable. I just wasn't sure if it would work as a bluegrass instrument.

[Elliot Luber]

Bluegrass is in your heart, not in your hole.

[JeffD]

An F4 can do anything that a mandolin can do. An F4 will work, very well, in any musical genre. There is no genre of music in which the F4 is a non-starter.

I believe there is way too much emphasis on the type of instrument for a given type of music. These assignemnts are somewhat happenstance, that has over time hardened into tradition. There are individual preferences for particular sounds, and aesthetic preferences for certain body types and time and tradition has ossified certain expectations. But it is important to keep in mind that these traditions did not originate as deliberate choices but mostly happened because that was what was easily available at time.

I would say that today's assignment of types of mandolins to types of music is a matter of optimization of this or that characteristic. The optimization is perhaps relevant to a professional performance, and even then, other things (playing ability, enthusiasm for the music, the lyrics, the types and placement of microphones, mix of musicians and instruments,) make much more difference to the audiences' appreciation of the show.

In a jam situation there is a whole lot more flexibility than one might think. Look, if a bowlback mandolin can be used effectively and convincingly in a bluegrass jam, in an OT jam, and in an Irish session, and it can, and it has, and it does, I am not going to worry about the differences between an F4 versus and F5.


If I had a vintage F5 with that creamy oval hole Gibson sound, I would play the potatoes out of it, in all genres of music, and let the stink eyes land where they may.

[JeffD]

Bluegrass is in your heart, not in your hole.

[Brent Hutto]

I believe there is way too much emphasis on the type of instrument for a given type of music. These assignemnts are somewhat happenstance, that has over time hardened into tradition. There are individual preferences for particular sounds, and aesthetic preferences for certain body types and time and tradition has ossified certain expectations.

This is reinforced by well-intentioned advice to beginners, repeated on these forums until it becomes part of everyone's background "knowledge". Admittedly, you've got to start somewhere when someone says "What kind of mandolin should I buy sight unseen. I'ver never seen a mandolin in person before". But the old "Oval for old-time and celtic, ff-holes for bluegrass" canard really has no more basis in reality than "Chevy Rulez but Ford Droolz" advice in a car forum.

P.S. And don't even get me started on any advice that contains the perjorative "Pac Rim"...

[f5loar]

And don't forget even the "Father of Bluegrass" used an F4 for a few recordings. He must have like them for bluegrass too!
Chris Hillman used a vintage F4 for his landmark recordings with "the Hillmen" back in the early 60's.
Curly Sechlor seemed to favor the round holes during his Flatt&Scruggs days. Hard to get more bluegrass then those guys.

[JeffD]

And don't forget even the "Father of Bluegrass" used an F4 for a few recordings. He must have like them for bluegrass too! Chris Hillman used a vintage F4 for his landmark recordings with "the Hillmen" back in the early 60's.
Curly Sechlor seemed to favor the round holes during his Flatt&Scruggs days. Hard to get more bluegrass then those guys.

This is a darn good point.


At the level at which I play, folks are going to bristle more at the the break I blew than at the instrument on which I flubbed the break!

[jmalmsteen]

Well, if its good enough for Bill. When it came down to it, I really wanted a Gibson with a flowerpot like Bill's mandolin. There are many talented builders out there but the heritage and tradition as well as the sound of course makes me gravitate towards Gibson. I love the fact that you can actually have a 1922 Gibson F even if it is not a Loar.

[Fretbear]

Norman and Nancy Blake have used vintage Gibson A and F style mandolins almost exclusively on their many recordings. Their music is an excellent example of what some of those instruments were built for and are capable of.