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Thread: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

  1. #26
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Yeah, while I find this really cool if they had made a K-4 I would have really been impressed. Too tell you the truth if they made a K-1 I still would be impressed. An actual mandocello as opposed to the a stock guitar that has been "mandocelloed". I don't want to seem like I am complaining about this, i think the K-5c is great, but it is what it is.

    Phil

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by goaty76 View Post
    Yeah, while I find this really cool if they had made a K-4 I would have really been impressed. Too tell you the truth if they made a K-1 I still would be impressed. An actual mandocello as opposed to the a stock guitar that has been "mandocelloed". I don't want to seem like I am complaining about this, i think the K-5c is great, but it is what it is.Phil
    Certainly a K-4 looks cool. But you know the cavity of a must be significantly larger. I've never made a measurement but if you suggest the like mandolins a K-1 and a K-4 have the same dimensions (e.g., A-4 vs F-4) then I know it is so because my Jumbo guitar based (16" bout) mandocello (the same as a K-5) is noticeably larger than my K-1. So there is that advantage -- not sure how important it is however. (see pic)

    But the neck is another story. I wish Greg Stec would chime back in on this string. He commented a couple of times earlier - -but is the only person I know to have actually played a Loar K-5. He played a Loar K-5 for several years and so I'd like to have him describe the neck (e.g., nut width, contour etc.) on it. I've never touched on only seen one behind a window.

    But that is what puzzles me about this K-5C -- why didn't Gibson just make a mandocello neck for it while they were at it? I'm sure they probably made these on a shoe string but it would have been a real plus I think. My K-1 (obviously) has mandocello neck the nut is 1.5" -- the K-5 style I have has a typical arch top guitar nut -- 1 11/16" -- I am here to tell you it makes a difference. I've adapted but I'll do it different this time.

    Please don't tell anyone but I recently purchase a mint condition 1950 Gibson L-50. This will be converted, professionally, to a K-5 this time I am having the neck slimmed down to 1.5".
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by goaty76 View Post
    Can you go into further detail on what you think looks so off with the finish?

    Phil
    Look at this one for what I mean.
    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?275
    This is the one I was playing for 20 years.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Certainly a K-4 looks cool. But you know the cavity of a must be significantly larger. I've never made a measurement but if you suggest the like mandolins a K-1 and a K-4 have the same dimensions (e.g., A-4 vs F-4) then I know it is so because my Jumbo guitar based (16" bout) mandocello (the same as a K-5) is noticeably larger than my K-1. So there is that advantage -- not sure how important it is however. (see pic)

    But the neck is another story. I wish Greg Stec would chime back in on this string. He commented a couple of times earlier - -but is the only person I know to have actually played a Loar K-5. He played a Loar K-5 for several years and so I'd like to have him describe the neck (e.g., nut width, contour etc.) on it. I've never touched on only seen one behind a window.

    But that is what puzzles me about this K-5C -- why didn't Gibson just make a mandocello neck for it while they were at it? I'm sure they probably made these on a shoe string but it would have been a real plus I think. My K-1 (obviously) has mandocello neck the nut is 1.5" -- the K-5 style I have has a typical arch top guitar nut -- 1 11/16" -- I am here to tell you it makes a difference. I've adapted but I'll do it different this time.

    Please don't tell anyone but I recently purchase a mint condition 1950 Gibson L-50. This will be converted, professionally, to a K-5 this time I am having the neck slimmed down to 1.5".
    Hi, Guys!

    It has been my opinion the 1924 K-5 I played is a 1924 L-5 redone. Nothing more, nothing less. It could have easily been an L-5 guitar, but it wouldn't have drawn the same attention, especially these last few years.

    As most of you know, I'm now the proud owner of a Ratliff copy of a K-4. And I love it. Great sound, action is IMO great. Audie did a great job. The copy's neck width is similar to either a period K-1 or 2. I've had the opportunity to play both over the years. The set up on mine is superior to the period instruments, but I believe luthiers have learned a thing or two since the early 1900's. Comparing the nut width of my copy to the K-5 (I mean putting them touching each other) the K-5 was narrower than the copy. We didn't measure the difference, but K-5 was visually narrower than the copy. My copy's neck has the 'feel' of a period K-1 or 2, but the 'action' is much better than either of them. A friend of mine as a K-2 that is in very good shape, but still has the period nut. And the action is not ridiculously high, but high nonetheless. If the nut was shaved down, it would be more easy to play. But he keeps it the way it because HE likes it that way.

    The K-5s neck IMO is a log. I mean, it's wide for me, fretboard to thumb. Some people like it. I didn't, but I had to get used to it. It wasn't mine. The K-5 has a truss rod. My copy has a truss also, but the copy's neck is more modern guitar-like. It's almost like a Fender Strat feel. IMO, the reason the K-5s neck is 'so' wide and has a truss rod is either Gibson wasn't really set on the idea of truss rods for the larger instruments as for the mandolins and mandolas, or it had old L-5 necks sitting around and 'just' installed truss rods in them. But that's my opinion.

    I hope I've answered some the questions, and I feel more coming. If you're at the CMSA convetion in Baltimore, I'm bringing my Ratliff today, and possibly tomorrow to play on during down times.

    And Bern, good luck with the L-50. I know someone who bought one already converted to m'cello and it was a good one.

    Later y'all!

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Interesting this talk of the necks on the mandocelli. I have a 1937 Gibson K1 (I think). Very late for these. The neck is very slim and similar to a guitar neck which is what I believe it to be. It is much slimmer than teens or twenties mandocelli I have played.

    BTW I did play a Loar K-5 -- on that Mandolin Brothers had -- but it was quite a few years ago and I can't recall any details. It was a nice instrument tho and I believe it was all original.

    I would love to see your Ratliff, Greg. I will be at CMSA tomorrow afternoon thru Sunday. I think today's luthiers can make excellent playable mandocelli.

    I believe that Jonathan Jensen of the BMO has a converted Gibson L model guitar and it sounds wonderful.
    Jim

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    For what this info is worth, Larry Wexer has a '29 K5 on his web site for sale.

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    I also had the opportunity to play the K5 that was at Mandolin Brothers. That was in the 80s, and it was a signed Loar. I just remember the wonderful tone, very lush, and as I recall the neck was not thin but comfortable to play. It was pretty close to mint condition. I owned a '14 K1 for a number of years, and although it had a good tone, I finally gave up on that huge neck. Playing above the first position was nearly impossible. I am now playing a '14 Vega cylinderback, whose neck has a very nice, more guitar-like profile. The sound is a bit more "cittern" than the Gibson. Still, if a 20s K4 came around............

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hedrick View Post
    For what this info is worth, Larry Wexer has a '29 K5 on his web site for sale.
    Nice... I wonder what he is asking for it?
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Gulp!!! It says he is asking $50k

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    how in the world do all of you play these things with the size of everything....I have tried and all of the double and triple stops that I play are impossible for my hands......

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Hedrick View Post
    how in the world do all of you play these things
    I am no virtuoso on the MC, but it is a different beast altogether. Mandolin or even mandola technique does not apply. When I did play mine in a group I often played bass lines or contra-melodies and rarely chords. Works nicely for drones at times as well.
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  12. #37
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I am no virtuoso on the MC, but it is a different beast altogether. Mandolin or even mandola technique does not apply. When I did play mine in a group I often played bass lines or contra-melodies and rarely chords. Works nicely for drones at times as well.
    Jim that is the right answer -- at least from my perspective. Totally different world from the mandolin or mandola -- even and octave feels "small" after a mandocello. If you have a '37 K-1 it is probably very similar to my '36 K-1 -- i.e., with the truss rod and so the neck is nice and slim and the nut is only 1.5" and the fretboard is 1.9" wide at fret 12. This results in a neck that is pretty easy to reach across and down to form 3 finger chords or even bar for the closed chords.

    The converted Epiphone Jumbo guitar that I have now has the guitar neck so the nut is 1.69" (1 11/16") and the fret board is 2.1" at fret 12.

    This small difference in width seems to make a significant difference in playability and in the required effort -- IMO.

    For example, on the Gibson K-1 with the 1.5" nut the average inter-course distance is 0.25" and the average inter-string distance is 0.14".

    But on the Epiphone (1.69" nut) the inter-course distance is 0.33" and the inter-string distance is 0.16.

    This disparity is larger up the neck at the 12th fret. So the farther up the neck you go the relative difficulty increases between the two mandocellos.

    On the Gibson the distance between the first "C" string and the last "A" string at the nut, fret 12, and bridge is: 1.36", 1.66" and 1.95" respectively.

    On the Epiphone the same distances are: 1.51", 1.77 and 2.10"

    Since this seems so important to playability, I am surprised by the choice of neck on the new Gibson L-5C. I'd still like to have it though!

    Regarding Gary and zookster comments -- yes for sure the neck on the pre-truss rod mandocellos was indeed huge. I had a 07' K-1 for a while and there was no comparison much more awkward to fret. Will Kimble saw my '36 K-1 a few weeks ago and was amazed he had never seen a later Gibson mandocello with a truss rod heretofore.

    Thanks for filling in on the K-5 Greg. For some reason I was thinking you had borrowed an original Loar K-5 -- but if you had a redone L-5 then it must have had the neck replaced or at least shaved down because an original L-5 neck would have a wide nut (1 11/16"). So not have been even narrower than your new Ratliff, which by your description, is on the order of 1.5".

    I'd like to find a K-5 that I can measure or find the specs on it because when I convert the Gibson L-50 to a K-5 I am going all the way this time and actually have the neck replaced with new K-5 neck. I have a friend here in Cincinnati who builds arch top guitars and uses a dove tail joint so he is good for it.
    Bernie
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Stec View Post
    Hi, Guys!

    It has been my opinion the 1924 K-5 I played is a 1924 L-5 redone. Nothing more, nothing less. It could have easily been an L-5 guitar, but it wouldn't have drawn the same attention, especially these last few years.

    And Bern, good luck with the L-50. I know someone who bought one already converted to m'cello and it was a good one.........Later y'all!
    Greg I looked close at the pics on the archive link you gave (to Loar mandocello #76981) if that is the one you played? If so I am wondering why you think it was a converted from a L-5? It looks very much like from the "ground up" K-5 to me. But I am only looking at pics of course.

    I think (and I do mean think) that most of the K-5's had the "standard" Gibson mandocello neck -- as noted in previous post with a 1.5" nut and corresponding taper down to 1.9 - 2.0" at around fret 12. In the pics at least that mandocello sure looks like a "standard" mandocello neck to me -- i.e., noticeably slimmer than an L-5.

    It always seemed counter-intuitive to me that an 8 string mandocello would have a narrower neck than a 6 string guitar but obviously the answer is 5 inter-string spaces (equivalent to a mando course) whereas the mandocello only has 3 comparable inter-course and 4 smaller inter-string differences.

    Where is "your" Loar now that you are playing your Ratliff?

    Thanks for the encouragement on the L-50 conversion! I don't go out of my way to discuss it as there are some here and elsewhere who get upset about taking down a vintage Gibson instrument - -of any kind. But mostly they don't read the CBOM section!

    Besides I am having it professionally converted to another Gibson instrument that is even rarer!!!
    Bernie
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    Registered User Greg Stec's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Thanks for filling in on the K-5 Greg. For some reason I was thinking you had borrowed an original Loar K-5 -- but if you had a redone L-5 then it must have had the neck replaced or at least shaved down because an original L-5 neck would have a wide nut (1 11/16"). So not have been even narrower than your new Ratliff, which by your description, is on the order of 1.5".

    I'd like to find a K-5 that I can measure or find the specs on it because when I convert the Gibson L-50 to a K-5 I am going all the way this time and actually have the neck replaced with new K-5 neck. I have a friend here in Cincinnati who builds arch top guitars and uses a dove tail joint so he is good for it.
    Bern, the K-5 I play was a loaner, but it was loaned to me for 20 years!! IMO, the K-5 COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN an L-5. It instrument is a blank, basically, before you put a nut, a set of tuners, bridge and trapeze on it. People are converting guitars to mandocellos today because the length and dimensions are the same, generally. One of Grisman's Tone Poems discs (II?) has a mandocello on one of the trax. The link below said it started life as a m'cello, then was converted to a guitar, then back to m'cello. The original m'cello bridge and trapeze (tail piece) were in its case.
    http://www.mandozine.com/instruments...ello_1924.html

    BTW, the K-5 is SUPPOSED TO BE at the CMSA convention today (10/14/2011). I have no control over it anymore;the current 'user' is planning to bring it in. And I will be there again with my Ratliff in tow. I had the privilege of playing a vintage K-4 (1913) yesterday at the convention. And it's owner, Dave Betz (unsure of spelling), played on mine. I had never played an original K-4 until then. The K-5 and LOTS of K-1s and 2s, but never a K-4. We liked each other's instrument, but no trade was made.
    Last edited by Greg Stec; Oct-14-2011 at 8:56am.

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    Registered User Greg Stec's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    Greg I looked close at the pics on the archive link you gave (to Loar mandocello #76981) if that is the one you played? If so I am wondering why you think it was a converted from a L-5? It looks very much like from the "ground up" K-5 to me. But I am only looking at pics of course.

    I think (and I do mean think) that most of the K-5's had the "standard" Gibson mandocello neck -- as noted in previous post with a 1.5" nut and corresponding taper down to 1.9 - 2.0" at around fret 12. In the pics at least that mandocello sure looks like a "standard" mandocello neck to me -- i.e., noticeably slimmer than an L-5.

    It always seemed counter-intuitive to me that an 8 string mandocello would have a narrower neck than a 6 string guitar but obviously the answer is 5 inter-string spaces (equivalent to a mando course) whereas the mandocello only has 3 comparable inter-course and 4 smaller inter-string differences.

    Where is "your" Loar now that you are playing your Ratliff?

    Thanks for the encouragement on the L-50 conversion! I don't go out of my way to discuss it as there are some here and elsewhere who get upset about taking down a vintage Gibson instrument - -of any kind. But mostly they don't read the CBOM section!

    Besides I am having it professionally converted to another Gibson instrument that is even rarer!!!
    What is needed is a comparison of a 1924 L-5 (or 2 or 3) to the 1924 K-5. I mean dimensions, fret spacing, size of the nut, fretboard width and length, etc., side by side. Gibsons we handmade then, therefore I can assume there will be small variances on all accounts. However, IMO, they would be twins, almost.

    I heard a tale that Toni Williamson had a broken late-40s L-5 years ago (late 1980's?). The one playing the BMO's K-5 at the time took it to either an early CMSA convention or a FIGA convention. Toni was there too and got to play it. He was so impressed he converted that L-5 to a m'cello. If it's true, that act might be 'ground zero' for the business of converting guitars to mandocellos.

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Stec View Post
    What is needed is a comparison of a 1924 L-5 (or 2 or 3) to the 1924 K-5. I mean dimensions, fret spacing, size of the nut, fretboard width and length, etc., side by side. Gibsons we handmade then, therefore I can assume there will be small variances on all accounts. However, IMO, they would be twins, almost.

    I heard a tale that Toni Williamson had a broken late-40s L-5 years ago (late 1980's?). The one playing the BMO's K-5 at the time took it to either an early CMSA convention or a FIGA convention. Toni was there too and got to play it. He was so impressed he converted that L-5 to a m'cello. If it's true, that act might be 'ground zero' for the business of converting guitars to mandocellos.
    On your first point the side-by-side comparo -- YES! I have been "muttering" about that very thing for a long time - - but it will not happen soon I guess especially since "real K-5's" are a pretty rare thing. I THINK one of the guys here on the forum who knows these things -- like Dan Beimborn (perhaps?) mentioned once that Gibson made perhaps only 20 - 30 (max) K-5's. And of course Loar signed L-5's are not exactly common either.

    Great story about Tony Williamson --- thanks for that. Yes indeed, ground zero! I have his email address so I might just query him about that before I proceed with my project!

    I just looked up CMSA and must confess I was not very knowledgeable about it -- it reminds me a bit of the FIGA (Fretted Instrument Guild of America) that I used to belong too. For sure I am going to join and attend the next convention. I'd like to get some experienced mandocello players such as yourself to try and evaluate the Epiphone K-5 style (see pic above) that I made and get advice on it before -- pros and cons I proceed with the Gibson conversion. Will Kimble looked at it and played it and thought it was pretty good so that was a good sign. But the slimmer neck is a much desired aspect (IMO) that this one does not have.
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Another comment on the Loar K-5 posted by Jim (#4 above and again in #16) -- by chance I discovered that this is #75255 (Loar signed February 11, 1924). Ironically this mandocello was converted to a guitar at one point and then converted back again here is the link to the relevant page on mandolin archieve.

    http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?163.

    Here also is a close of picture of the headstock -- you still can see where the holes for the guitar tuners!

    Also of interest the nut on that mandocello appears to be on the short side of 1.5" based on comparing nut width to the distance between the nut and fret #1 on the photo. This kind of measurement on an image can have angle and parallax issues but certainly at least we can see int is a narrow nut for a mandocello.
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    Last edited by Bernie Daniel; Oct-14-2011 at 5:16pm.
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Bern,
    The 2012 CMSA convention is in Minneapolis. And I can certainly say there will be many mandocellists there. I can't say 'my' K-5 will be there, but perhaps it will.
    That doesn't help you on your project NOW, but there it is.

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    I heard CMSA 2012 was going to be in Regina, Saskatchewan.
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    I heard CMSA 2012 was going to be in Regina, Saskatchewan.
    I asked that question at a CMSA meeting the day this year's convention opened and learned it was Minneapolis, MN in 2012 and
    Regina, Saskatchewan in 2013.
    I'll wait for the dust to settle from CMSA 2011 before I ask again.

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Daniel View Post
    If the measurements a person can make on a photograph are to be trusted -- I am convinced that this new K-5C was made by converting an L-5C. That is, this was not built from scratch as a mandocello.

    I'm pretty sure that is a standard guitar neck with mandolin tuners and the appropriate bridge and tail piece.

    Not meant in any way to disparage or diminish the new instrument -- just making an observation.
    Of course the original K5 was also a re-purposed guitar, so nothing new there.

    Meanwhile, we can only hope they used an L-5 neck with the proper L-5 scale. That would have to be an improvement over the too-short, traditional Gibson Mandocello scale, especially where the C string is concerned.


    Rob

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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Sharer View Post
    Of course the original K5 was also a re-purposed guitar, so nothing new there.

    Meanwhile, we can only hope they used an L-5 neck with the proper L-5 scale. That would have to be an improvement over the too-short, traditional Gibson Mandocello scale, especially where the C string is concerned. Rob
    The body clearly was the same on the two. Even the top graduations were also apparently the same. But I think both the L-K and K-5 started the same year, 1922, so it may not be correct to say the body "belongs" to either the mandocello or the guitar?

    But the necks were different as you point out -- I think the scale length was only about 1/2" difference though (L-5 = 24.25 and K-5 = 24.75")? The biggest neck difference as far as I am concerned is the width. (at the nut L-5 = 1 11/16" and K-5 = 1 1/2").
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

  24. #49
    Registered User Greg Stec's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    This link does NOT appear to have been posted. More pictures and info on the Gibson K-5C mandocello.
    Awesome looking and I bet the sound is one to behold.
    http://www.themusiczoo.com/cgi-bin/c...AID=1063892153

  25. #50
    Certified! Bernie Daniel's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Gibson K-5C Mandocello

    What a great advertisement -- that would be a lovely piece to own. Still think the nut is wider than ideal but what a beauty.
    Bernie
    ____
    Due to current budgetary restrictions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off -- sorry about the inconvenience.

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