Pentatonic Scale for Idiots

[jlavkuli]

I have been playing guitar for many years and the OM for about a month. I understand notes, chords, progressions etc. I can transpose chords and had no trouble learning chords on the OM. I can strum along with most of the songs when my wife plays the fiddle. After reading some of the posts on this thread I know that most of you are way out of my league in music theory.

Throughtout the years I have tried to understand the pentatonic scale and still have no clue. I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C OK. So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker? Some of the explanations I have read just make me laugh. For example Wiki (I know... don't go to Wiki):

"Proceeding by the principle that historically gives the Pythagorean diatonic and chromatic scales, stacking perfect fifths with 3:2 frequency proportions, the anhemitonic pentatonic scale can be tuned thus; 64:72:81:96:108. Considering the anhemitonic scale as a subset of a just diatonic scale, it is tuned thus; 24:27:30:36:40. Assigning precise frequency proportions to the pentatonic scales of most cultures is problematic."

Right... Anyone care to to take a stab at explaining it to a musically challenged music lover?

[mandolirius]

I have been playing guitar for many years and the OM for about a month. I understand notes, chords, progressions etc. I can transpose chords and had no trouble learning chords on the OM. I can strum along with most of the songs when my wife plays the fiddle. After reading some of the posts on this thread I know that most of you are way out of my league in music theory.

Throughtout the years I have tried to understand the pentatonic scale and still have no clue. I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C OK. So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker? Some of the explanations I have read just make me laugh. For example Wiki (I know... don't go to Wiki):

"Proceeding by the principle that historically gives the Pythagorean diatonic and chromatic scales, stacking perfect fifths with 3:2 frequency proportions, the anhemitonic pentatonic scale can be tuned thus; 64:72:81:96:108. Considering the anhemitonic scale as a subset of a just diatonic scale, it is tuned thus; 24:27:30:36:40. Assigning precise frequency proportions to the pentatonic scales of most cultures is problematic."

Right... Anyone care to to take a stab at explaining it to a musically challenged music lover?

Hilarious! That "explanation" is a wonderful example of how more information can sometimes be completely unhelpful. Where did that come from?

As for what the pentatonic scale means to the amateur picker, I'd say it's a gateway to improvisation. Pentatonic scales are usually fairly easy to execute and work in a variety of situations. The blues, for example is full of pentatonic scales, same with oldtime and bluegrass. You may be in danger of "overthinking" this one.

[John Gardinsky]

I know that the pentatonic scale starting in C is C D E A G C OK. So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?

The pentatonic scale is five notes by definition before it hits the octave note or root note. Pentatonics occur in all the 12 keys both major and minor. One reason to learn it is because it is quite common in Western music. If you familiarize yourself with what it sounds like and where it lays on the fretboard then you can grasp pentatonic melodies faster. Amazing Grace is a major pentatonic melody for example. Wayfaring stranger is a minor pentatonic melody.

Your C Major pentatonic scale above is correct but out of order. Ascending it should read C D E G A before it hits C again. Now contrast this with the C Major scale(7 notes) C D E F G A B. The pentatonic just drops two notes which are the 4th (F) and 7th (B). It creates a certain sound...Some like it, some find it boring in large doses. Nonetheless a good thing to have in ones toolbox.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

So what does that mean for me, an amatuer picker?

I would ignore that section from Wikipedia. Has minimal practical value.

What is means for playing music is that the pentatonic is a useful scale that is about as safe as you can get from the perspective of playing in harmony with the chords at hand. If you want to move away from only playing the notes indicated by the chord, a first step is to use the pentatonic scale. Take a C Major chord, for example. If you want to improvise a simple melody or accompaniment over this chord, you could make it very safe and just use the notes in a C major chord. Namely, C, E, and G. However, that is a rather limited set of notes, and therefore there aren't too many possibilities for building interesting melodies. So the next step up is the pentatonic scale. This gives you the three notes of the chord (C E G) plus two more (D A). Turns out that D and A are pretty harmonious against the C major chord to our ears. So they are pretty safe to play over this chord. It's hard to play a C pentatonic melody over a C chord and make it sound discordant.

So when playing accompaniment on the OM to a tune, you may find that you want to add measure or two of counter melody perhaps. But what to play, besides strumming the chords or pulling out bass notes? Here's where some experimentation with the pentatonic scale can lead to something that is more than just the chord, but doesn't veer off into dissonance with some ill-chosen notes from the entire C major scale. Strum the chords, decide where you will insert a line, and try an ascent or descent through 5 or 6 notes of the pentatonic, and slide back into chords. Like I said, will be hard to make it sound dissonant. Depending on what style of music, and the rhythm, and all that, the results may be less than satisfactory. But, it's a way to get the sound of the tonal palette that the pentatonic provides in your head, and it's a safe palette to choose from. It's also a good leaping point to move to a larger palette down the road.

Well, maybe none of the above has practical value, but there's some thoughts on it anyway.

Cheers
MRT

[jlavkuli]

Great replies. I do understand. I guess I was making it too complicated. Sometimes while chording I add a few single note runs. and I see now that they are always on the pentatonic scale. So if someone is playing a C chord I can play any of the notes C D E G and A in any order that sounds good. And if my wife is playing a melody on the fiddle where I would normally be playing a C chord, the same applies. Right? Thanks guys. You would all make good teachers.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

That's the basic idea, yes. Generally, the notes of the chord (i.e. C E G) still tend to get an emphasis over the other 2 notes (D A) in the pentatonic. John G mentioned Amazing Grace. It is strictly pentatonic (unless you soup it up with extra blue notes!), but if you look at the downbeat of each bar, every single downbeat is actually a chord tone. The two pentatonic notes which are not chordal happen in passing between the chord notes, they are of shorter duration, etc. So in principle yes, "any of the notes CDEGA over a C chord in any order that sound good", but most tonal styles will favor landing or heading towards the C E and G notes on a C chord, using the D and A to help get there.

Most importantly, these rules are meant to be broken. Great and interesting results can occur when you emphasize the D and A notes instead, so don't take any of this as dogma or necessity. Best to fool with it and find what sounds good. But to play it safe, the above can be a good guide to fall back on as needed.

Cheers
MRT

[journeybear]

Might as well talk about the minor scale too. It gets used in blues and rock a lot. Since you play guitar, and surely have played a lot in E, that would be E G A B D E/ (You should be able to see this uses the same notes as the G major pentatonic scale - no surprise, given their relative status.) Using numbers that's 1 3b 4 5 7b, and the major scale is 1 2 3 5 6. In terms of intervals or frets, it's 3-2-2-3-2 for minor, 2-2-3-2-3 for major.

For example: My band does a song by Ray Wylie Hubbard called "Cooler 'n Hell," an artfully constructed listing of a lot of cool things, and there is a line in the second verse about Lightnin' Hopkins and a pentatonic scale. It's where the song goes to the IV then I chords, and it's a perfect place to throw in a fill. The second or third time we did it I had the bright idea to throw in a descending pentatonic scale there - can't resist a good set-up - and the guitarist/singer just about cracked up, so I've done it ever since. To notate this ... it's in 6/8, so ... starting right after it goes back to the I, it's: E E D / B A G / E D B / E (Hope that scans all right.) I have even taken to playing much of the upcoming solo in the same vein, just for fun, until I start feeling a bit constrained. Now, I doubt many people in the audience know what is going on there, either the term or the playing, but maybe some seeps in.

All I'm saying is this gets used, a lot, and it is a good way to build strong sounding blues and rock solos. You will hear it a lot in hip-hop and pop music these days. It's pretty basic, and some people who have advanced far beyond what most mere mortals can do with an instrument can get a bit snobby about people who rely on it too much for their liking. But hey - you gotta start somewhere, and getting good enough with this can help you get to play with the big boys, and that's a good thing.

As to the theory behind this, I'll have to leave that to others to explain. I just know it works, and a little bit how, but not so much why. That has never seemed too important to me.

[amowry]

Niles Hokkanen does a great job of demystifying pentatonic scales in some of his books. The two that I'm familiar with are Hot Licks for Hot Picks and The Pentatonic Mandolin.

[SternART]

"The Pentatonic Mandolin" is fabulous! His book on playing up the neck is great too........

[jlavkuli]

Many thanks everyone. I started trying some of the suggestions and they worked better than I expected. I just need some practice... commit them to muscle memory.

[journeybear]

Had another thought - in addition to muscle memory, think about sight memory (for lack of a better term). Scales follow a visible pattern on a fretboard, which makes them easy to locate. For example, as the G scale on the bottom two strings follows a repeated pattern of

0-2-4-5
0-2-4-5

the pentatonic scale looks like

0-2-5
0-2-4

for starters. Pretty soon, you'll see these spots almost instinctively, and eventually feel them as well.

I think of the locations of notes in a scale on a fretboard as safe places to put your fingers. That is not to say the rest of the locations can't be worked in somehow, in the right situations, but most of the time those safe spots are where you want to land.

Also, with the two dropped tones, the pentatonic scale is a quicker way to get up and down the fretboard.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Scales follow a visible pattern on a fretboard, which makes them easy to locate.

Good point. Another useful pentatonic pattern you can visualize when you are still learning the notes is the following, spread across three strings:


|x| |x| | |
|R| |x| |x|
| | |x| |x|


The position marked capital R is the root note of the scale. You can move this box pattern anywhere, of course. For C major pentatonic, you can set it with the first finger (R) at the 3rd fret of the A string. You can dip down to frets 5 and 7 for the G and A notes below, and you can run up the pentatonic by doing 3 5 7 on the A and then 3 5 on the E string. It makes a nice little box that is easy to grab from.

[jlavkuli]

Great tips on the visual memory. Journeybear I follow yours. Mark, I am not sure I understand yours. By the way, I watched your video. Really like it. Reminded me of the Punch Brothers... hope that isn't an insult.

[Don Julin]

Wow! That Wikipedia pentatonic info was fairly useless. Whenever there is a discussion here about pentatonic scales I feel the need to participate. I LOVE using pentatonic scales as a starting point whether I am improvising or composing. It is a sound that resonates with most humans that live on Earth. There is an interesting video on youtube featuring Bobby McFerrin where he demonstrates the power of pentatonic scale on a very non-musical audience. http://youtu.be/ne6tB2KiZuk

I recently watched Cave of Forgotten Dreams. A documentary by Werner Herzog about the Chauvet caves in France that have been sealed for 30,000 years that contain charcoal drawings and other remains (very well preserved) from the Paleolithic period. One of the things they found was a flute tuned to guess what! The pentatonic scale. Some people discredit these 5 notes and consider anyone using them to be on the same musical plane as Nigel Tufnel. (lead guitarist for Spinal Tap)

I disagree! I know I have posted this video before but I keep getting so many positive comments from people about this video that I am going to post it again. In this free instructional video, I demonstrate how to use 3 pentatonic scales as arpeggios in the key of G covering the chords G,C,D7.

[journeybear]

Mark's diagram is really the same, just with bars for frets and x's for fingers; this is more freed from the nut, while mine was measure by frets from the nut, but they're the same. If there were an O (for octave) to the right of the top right bar you would see the same pattern that I wrote out with numbers.

Don - Of course YOU don't agree with such a negative assessment of Nigel Tufnel's abilities, particularly with Nigel Tufnel Day approaching next Friday - yes, when all dates go to 11!

[jlavkuli]

Thanks again to everyone. A wealth of information!

[mandolirius]

Wow! That Wikipedia pentatonic info was fairly useless.

What are you saying? Comedy has no value?

[journeybear]

Yeah, really - so serious it's funny. It might be absolutely correct on some musicomathematical theoretical analytical definition level, but for practical purposes ... I don't see much use for it. It may indeed explain why pentatonic scales work, but not how - and I tend to believe that "how" is more important than "why" in musical performance.

[Gerard Dick]

The beauty of the pentatonic scale is that 2 potentially sour notes have been left out. the 4 and the 7 are deleted. what is left are the notes that are common to all 3 scales of the 1,4,5 chord pattern so common in western music. For example in the key of G the chord most used are G, C, and D. Now the G scale goes g,a,b,c,d,e,f#,g. Looking at the C scale there is no f# so we delete that. Looking at the D scale the c is sharp so we delete the c as well. What is left is a scale that has only notes common to all 3 scales. It goes g,a,b,d,e,g or by the numbers in any scale 1,2,3,5,6,8 (1). Soloing with this scale makes it harder to play a note that totally doesn't fit.

[aliza]

That makes a whole lot of sense. So in the key of C (c d e f g a b c), we leave out the F because it's not part of the G scale, and we leave out the B because it's not part of the F scale.
Does that mean that the D should really only be played when playing the G chord and the A should only be played during the F chord?
Or, does it not matter exactly which chord you're up to?

[journeybear]

I don't think it means a whole lot besides notes in the pentatonic scale of the key of a song are going to also be in the notes of the I, IV, and V chords of that key, as well as the VIm chord. It's more coincidence and back-reasoning than raison d'etre. It may help explain why it is so popular and why it gets used so much - it's safe - but not how it came into being. The pentatonic scale predates the I-IV-V progression by thousands of years, if not tens of thousands of years.

[MandoSquirrel]

Niles Hokkanen(mandocrucian) published a good little book called "Pentatonic Mandolin" that's very thorough.

[John Gardinsky]

I have posted this before but I'll do it again simply because it's good food for thought...

Using the root note's pentatonic scale exclusively over a I,IV,V progression is a safe and effective tool for improvisation.

Another approach is to change the scale to better suit each chord as they pass by in the progression. For an example lets use the key of G. Pick a very basic chord progression like G(I) to C(IV) to D(V) and back to G. While on the G chord use the G major pentatonic (G,A,B,D,E,). When the progression shifts to C then use the C major pentatonic (C,D,E,G,A) and like wise with D(D,E,F#,A,B).

You'll note that when these are all added together you end up with the notes from the major scale of our root note G (G,A,B,C,D,E,F#). So you are using the entire major scale to improvise with but you are confining yourself to safe sections of it over each chord. Neat trick.

[billkilpatrick]

n - e - s - t - l - e - s (chocolate) ...

[journeybear]

And for minor: Hendrix - "Voodoo Chile (Slight Return)" opening riff.