Review and comparison 'The Loar LM-700 VS'

[Folkmusician.com]

I need to be setting up mandolins..... I knew I shouldn't have opened the MandolinCafe! I am just scanning through the posts here, so no specific quotes or references. Let me try to clear up my perception of The Loar's. Specifically the LM-700.

I sell a BIG portion of the entire output from The Loar shop. Right now, more than I can setup (which is why I need to close the Café and get back to work! hehe). I like the line a lot. In my opinion, The Loar has quickly taken over the lower price points. The LM-700 has its fair share of what I consider, minor cosmetic issues. I realize that what I consider minor may bother other people which is why I make no effort to defend their finish quality and try not to use "minor" as a descriptive term even if that is how I see it. It is what it is and I accept it. I want my customers to realize that the finish will not be perfect. It will be rough inside the scroll, up under the fingerboard and if they go over it closely, they will find minor flaws. I do get some complaints about the finish. I offer a very liberal return policy (14 days from delivery to post marked return, for a full refund, shipping to the customer is free even if returned). I have only had a couple of these returned ever. This includes customers that were not real thrilled with the finish quality. They do like the mandolins and end up keeping them. The point here is that I have an extremely high satisfaction rate on these mandolins despite less than perfect finish quality. So when I point out the flaws and say "yep, I see that all the time", I am just stating the facts and not really meaning it as a negative toward the mandolins. I like the mandolins. I recommend them every day. I am quite enthusiastic about them!

I am constantly rejecting mandolins. The Loars have the fewest serious issues of the imports I deal with. By serious I mean bowed necks (single most common reason I reject mandolins), non functioning truss rods, collapsing tops, etc. Despite the finish imperfections the underlying build quality has been very good on The Loars.

And yes, the vast majority of PacRim mandolins sold abroad will never see US quality control. The freight costs would only be a portion of the concern. You are now importing to the US, then exporting as well. It would not be cost effective. It is logical to think that overall The US mandolins (for US owned brands) released to dealers/consumers would be of higher quality.

Back to work for me.

[pdb]

I think it's great that Greg is striving to make a customer happy by offering to replace the instrument. I have only heard great things about TML customer service. However, their customer service I don't believe is being questioned here at all. It's the chinese manufacturers QC that is in question. Joe, you state GR is willing to replace this mandolin even before he is being contacted about it; this is right after you admit you have made contact with him about this mandolin...so I am more than a little confused by that statement. I think we all understand that TML is a great company to deal with, they make a good product for the money, and they strive to do what's right by the customer. I don't believe these things are in question...only QC has been the issue from what I can tell in this thread.
Also, I have found the kentucky km1000 and km1500 bridges to be of higher quality than The Loar bridges and therefore would not need a necessary bridge replacement that The Loar mandolins do.

[Fstpicker]

I would be curious what the manufacturing date/serial number on your 700 is? My guess is that it is one of the earlier-made models when the QC wasn't as good as it is now. Could be wrong...this is just a hunch.


Jeff

[devilsbox]

I am glad to see these issues brought up for discussion. There may be a few of us out here.

[almeriastrings]

I would be curious what the manufacturing date/serial number on your 700 is? My guess is that it is one of the earlier-made models when the QC wasn't as good as it is now. Could be wrong...this is just a hunch.

A11030470

Which I believe makes it a March 2011 build.

Allowing time for shipping from China, import and distribution, and this one did not hang around the store very long.

It is quite true that the store in question (Thomann in Germany) do absolutely nothing in the way of setup, and their own "QC" is limited to a) Open the box and check the mandolin, guitar or whatever is in there and b) check for obvious major damage. That's it. They do nothing else. I knew that when I bought it, of course. That is why I have always advised people, where possible, to buy from a specialist dealer who will provide pre-sale service. Unfortunately, in the whole of Europe, I know of no really specialist dealer who does this with this brand. So, anyone buying in Europe (27 countries) is pretty much on their own in this respect. You can find a number of dealers of Kentucky, Eastman, etc., but there are (now) very, very few places that stock 'The Loar' mandolin range. There may be one small store in Ireland that I heard had an LM400, LM600 and LM700 recently.

I'd add that I do not agree (at all) with the statement that bridges on the Kentucky mandolins are the same poor quality as on all four 'The Loar' models I have now checked. On 'The Loar' the workmanship on the bridges is rough and ready. The wood feels of low density. On one, the adjustment screws were poorly fitted and loose. On both 'Kentucky' mandolins I have here right now (even a lowly KM-505) the bridges are really quite good. Nicely finished off and the density of the ebony feels good. I've been using the stock bridge on my KM-1000 quite happily for some time... I would not even contemplate that with the bridge supplied on the LM-700.

[Folkmusician.com]

I'd add that I do not agree (at all) with the statement that bridges on the Kentucky mandolins are the same poor quality as on all four 'The Loar' models I have now checked. On 'The Loar' the workmanship on the bridges is rough and ready. The wood feels of low density. On one, the adjustment screws were poorly fitted and loose. On both 'Kentucky' mandolins I have here right now (even a lowly KM-505) the bridges are really quite good. Nicely finished off and the density of the ebony feels good. I've been using the stock bridge on my KM-1000 quite happily for some time... I would not even contemplate that with the bridge supplied on the LM-700.

I agree here. While a CA bridge is a worthy upgrade, there is nothing wrong with the KM-900, 1000, 1500 bridges assuming they are fit correctly. The lower model Kentucky's do have poor quality bridges. The Eastman bridges are better than those on The Loar and all of the Kentucky models below the 900, but would benefit from an upgrade as well.

[Big Joe]

I did not contact Greg. He contacted me. He wanted to be sure that this customer was aware of the differences in how international versus domestic US sales and warranty and set up are handled. Just as with Martin and Gibson and most other manufacturers, there is a difference in the way international sales and domestic sales are handled in these areas. It is not unusual for international customer to be very upset when they realize the USA warranty and service is not the same. This may be unfortunate, but it is the way it is.

The factory in China does try to get things right concerning finish and setup. Like any company, not all are as good as we may wish. The factory, like all factories, have numbers they have to hit. The distributor recieves them and has the option of accepting or rejecting the instruments. The distributor for your area of the world is responsible for quality control. Remember these are made in a factory, shipped in the belly of a ship in a container packed in a box. Temperature and humidity will affect the way the setup and quality is when they arrive in the port of destination. In some cases, the mandolins may not be as good as they should.

In the USA it arrives, goes to the warehouse, is checked out and graded by the guys at TML. They reject those with finish flaws that would be beyond what they feel and most of their dealers feel is acceptable. In several years of seeing all these mandolins I sent back two LM600's because I did not feel the backs had a reasonable enough flame. No damage to the finish and the necks, frets, etc. were good. They exchanged them without question before they even sent a call tag for return shipping. In addition to the grading at the warehouse, if they are shipped to the other warehouse for the East coast, the inspect them again before shipment and attempt to clean up the setups a bit. When they arrive to the dealer they are again inspected. We always do a professional grade setup before we ship. We do that with anything that is sold in our shop of any brand, age, quality, or kind of instrument. We ensure it is the best it can be and will put our final product up against anyone else's. Then, and only then, will we ship to the customer. Should there be an issue with the instrument, we will immediately take care of it. We have had one. It was with a bent tuner shaft. We don't know if that happened before the purchaser got it, or after. It was a few weeks before it was brought to our attention. We had him return it, TML sent us a new set of tuners, we installed them and sent it back to the owner. He was very happy and it was a very nice mandolin.

I would not say the finish is up to the standards we had at Gibson, but even those were rough in the scrolls and under the fingerboard extension. Even the original Lloyd Loars were like that as well. Many manufacturers are. As in any product, the builder has to chose what is important, and what is not. The cost to the end purchaser would be substantial if more time were spent on those minor cosmetic issues. Would it be worth it? Well, that depends. If you want to spend more money on the product that structurally and tonally is already there, then it would be. Most purchasers are on a budget and often stretch to get the LM700. If it were priced higher, then it would not be available to a good share of its market.

The factory COULD decide to stress finish work more than tone or structure, but that was not the way they wanted to go. They wanted to produce the best mandolin in tone and volume and with a reasonable finish. Given the choices they faced, they made what they felt was the right choice. There are other manufacturers who chose "pretty" over quality. That was the choice they made, and they have sold a lot of mandolins. Is that a bad choice? Well, as a mandolin player who expects a very high standard of quality in tone and structure, it may be. However, they built to a price point and have sold tons of them.

As for this particular mandolin that is in discussion, I am sure I can get information on how to return it for a replacement. I will talk to Greg in the next day or so and get you that information. Again, I did not contact the factory, but Greg happened across this thread and contacted me. TML does go out of their way to ensure the customer is happy. They do watch many of the forums and try to deal with issues as best they can before they become major issues.

Please understand that no builder is perfect any or all of the time. I don't care who built your instrument or what you paid for it or what you may think of it, I can guarantee you I would find something that is not perfect. I have never seen one yet that was flawless in some area. That covers thousands of mandolins over forty plus years of messing with these things. Not one that was flawless. I have worked on some VERY expensive and high dollar instruments. The same goes with guitars and banjos and dobros, etc. etc. etc. You may not see the flaws, but I will. That is my job to find problems. That does not mean the instrument is inferior by any means, just not flawless. That goes for the most expensive to the least expensive. What flaws can you live with and which ones can you not live with? That is ultimately the question. Everything that has ever been built is a compromise in some area.

Watches have always been a particular passion of mine. Especially automatic movements. In many cases, a quartz watch will be more accurate than an automatic watch over a period of time. That is as long as the battery is good and the electronics work right. Still, I hate quartz watches. Most of you may not know that an automatic wrist watch is the most accurate mechanical machine ever made by man. In spite of that it is not quite as perfect at keeping time as the quartz watch may be. That means I have to compromise something to wear a nice automatic watch. I could get a watch for under one hundred dollars (maybe less than ten)that will keep better time than expensive watches. Does that make the quartz watch that cost ten dollars better? No. It means the cheapy is only better at one very small part of the whole equation. It keeps very good time. That may be the real purpose of a watch, but the slight difference in accuracy is not that much. I prefer the other aesthetic and functional issues I gain with my automatic watch. What I am trying to say is that perfection is never perfect in this world. We have to chose what compromises we with to accept or reject. That applies to watches, mandolins, food, etc. etc. etc. Thank you.

[almeriastrings]

When you happen to be in contact with Greg Rich next, you might like to let him know that one of his very early handbuilt Recording King banjos (this is the one he made for Herb Pedersen) around the Rich and Taylor era is now living happily with us here in Spain. It is a very fine instrument indeed. I believe Pat Cloud and Sonny Osborne also had examples of these. There were only a few ever made.

I will get the sound files up shortly...it has taken a bit longer than expected to get the comparison instruments (4 of them) all set up as equally as possible with new strings, etc.

[almeriastrings]

Sorry for delay in getting some sound files up, but here are some to start with. I'll add the 'chop' test shortly. Starting off with four mandolins, all with the same brand/type of strings (J74's) all fitted on the same day and all played in for (roughly) the same number of hours. I used the same pick on all tests. I took a simple fiddle tune (8th of January) and tried to play it exactly the same on each instrument. It uses quite a lot of open strings and some fairly quick picking, so you can hear quite well how each instrument responds in this context. I recorded them one after another without moving the mics or the instrument positions. No EQ or compression was used.

http://soundcloud.com/almeria-string...mandolin-tests

The instruments (not necessarily in order):

Kentucky KM1000
Gibson F5 Fern
The Loar LM700
Silverangel Distressed F

Given the vast price difference it should be easy to tell them apart..... or maybe not.

[Malcolm G.]

Thanks for the considerable care and attention you've taken with this apples to apples to apples to apples comparison.

I'm certainly no expert and my sound system sucks, but I do hear tone and volume differences.

Oddly enough, I tend to like the quieter mandolin. But that's just me, I'm not a Bluegrasser and gravitate to the mellower sounds.

Well played, by the way - I doubt that I could nail four takes in a row as well as you have.

You've got some dandy instruments there.

[ebeja]

Thanks for your comparison, Great picking!

[jambalaya]

thanks for the comparison. nice pickin' btw. are you gonna list which is which at some point?

[almeriastrings]

Yes, I will reveal which is which. I didn't want to do that right at the start though, because knowing that almost invariably colors people's perceptions... I did similar little test some years back with a couple of "low end" Martin guitars vs. some "high end" recent models, and even threw in a pre-war.... strangely enough, those with advance knowledge of which was which could "easily" hear differences that made the expensive ones better (!) but those without such knowledge had quite a hard time differentiating them, some even thinking that the cheapest one on test was in fact, the rarest and most valuable... Dick Boak and Chris Martin were quite tickled by the results, that's for sure.

So, always best to start off using ears alone, not preconceptions, in my opinion!

I will say that I think "The Loar" does really very well indeed in terms of how it sounds. Putting aside finish, setup and other QC issues, the darn thing can be made to play and sound far, far better than you'd ever believe possible from the price tag. It kind of reminds me of the situation with some 'repro' electric guitars. The basic construction can be very good, and they can prove a super basis for 'hot rodding' and customization. New wiring, new pickups, etc. With 'The Loar', the tuners are fine, but the bridge (and tail-piece) is really poor... once changed, though... with proper setup... it can really perform. I'd like to hear one after the thick finish has gone....

[Fstpicker]

I don't have the "experienced" ears of many of you, but to me they all sound very good. I'd be hard pressed to make any determination of which is which. My rough guess is that the Fern is the 3rd or 4th one in the group.
Thanks for going to the trouble of posting these clips!
Jeff

[houseworker]

Very impressed with your picking. I've only listened on my laptop, but the one recording that stood out for me was track 3, which was the one I liked the least.

My regular instrument is a '20 F4 btw.

[mandopaul]

My ears say: 1. Kentucky 1000
2. SilverAngel
3. Loar 700
4. Gibson Fern

[Ron McMillan]

A couple of months ago I also had a bad experience with a brand new The Loar (an LM 400) that had come to me straight from China. Or at least, it went from China to the USA already destined for the Thailand store that requested it for me.

I was not unhappy with its cosmetic condition, but that was partly because I was so focussed on more pressing issues to do with terrible quality control. A longish thread covered the subject already, but in brief, it arrived with the neck badly in need of a truss rod adjustment (so bad that it was impossible to play ANY chord that sounded remotely in tune); many of the fret ends were sitting tall, needing seated properly to even them out; the nut was a country mile too high, making action in the early frets a bad joke; and the bridge was wrongly placed (destroying intonation) and wound up incredibly high to boot.

I made a lot of noise on the forum and sent emails and messages to the USA that led to polite concern and offers of advice from there, but consistently I came up against the caveat that I didn't get a 'normal' quality instrument, because I only got one that came from China and had not had the setting up done to it that all American market instruments automatically obtain.

The obvious thing wrong with that state of affairs is that ALL the instruments bear the name of the (American) parent company brand. So why on earth are poorly set up (and, it seems according to almeriastrings' measured report sometimes just as poorly finished) The Loars being sent out in such bad condition to other parts of the world, never mind the damage they might do to the all-important brand?

It is great that American consumers are being taken care of so carefully, but quite difficult to comprehend that the rest of the world might actually be being treated like second-class citizen consumers.

ron

[John Kinn]

I'm probably making a fool of myself, but here goes:

1.Kentucky
2.Silverangel
3.Gibson
4.The Loar

[Rayne]

This is a great discussion! I played 5 or 6 Loars when I was looking for my mandolin. I just could not get over the finish issues. The Eastman and Kentucky models were just so much better in fit and finish. I went back and forth between Kentucky and Eastman before I bought my Eastman 815V. Why should I spend close to the same amount of money for the Loar when I could not get around those QC issues? I also felt the sound was much more to my liking in the Eastman and Kentucky line. If you are a company selling The Loar, then I understand your defensive posture. As a buyer, I felt there were other choices that gave me more for my dollar in overall quality control. I have since played a few Loar archtop guitars that did nothing for me either. As a brand, "The Loar" does not bang my shoes off.

[almeriastrings]

Some 'Chops' on an A chord on each mandolin, random order.

http://soundcloud.com/almeria-strings/mando-chops

Certainly brings out a few differences....

Structurally, these are all quite different mandolins:

Silverangel F model with X-brace
The Loar LM700 with no bracing
KM1000 (Red spruce top) and Gibson Fern (Sitka top) with tone bars

[houseworker]

Again, number 3 stands out for me as the one I like the least. Are these the same order as the earlier recordings, or a new random sequence?

[Schlegel]

It is great that American consumers are being taken care of so carefully, but quite difficult to comprehend that the rest of the world might actually be being treated like second-class citizen consumers.

ron

But isn't the setup work and final QC just being done by the American retailers and not the factory? Steve and Robert are not employees of The Loar, for example. They are independent businessmen. The extra care is because the retailer is willing to invest the extra work. Every non-US case of complaint I've seen on the forum, it seems the retailer basically just acted as a shipper.

[Big Joe]

Each of the mandolins get a basic setup in China. While it is not anywhere near where we could expect, we have to remember they do not play mandolin in China. Finding luthiers who are great at setup is quite hard. Secondly, factory setups are very generic no matter where they are made. From China to about anywhere in the world the mandolin goes into a container in the belly of some ship. Then they spend some time before the container is opened. It may be weeks, but often is quite a few months. They have to clear customs in the country where they arrive. The distributor in that country then makes them available to the dealers. The distributors usually have no one who plays or knows mandolins. They take the box out of the container and send it to the retailer when they are ordered.

The retailer in most countries do not have a lot of experience with mandolins. They don't often have master luthiers who are on staff to set these up for optimal performance. Most retailers (domestic and international) just put the box in the mail and it goes to the end consumer. It is not because they don't care, they don't even think about it. If you think it is bad for mandolins, try banjos!!!

In the USA the distributor has a luthier who has the responsibility to inspect and setup each instrument and grade them for the proper grade. They then ship them to retailers. While not all retailers do a good setup for mandolins, the goal of the factory is to have dealers who can do a proper setup. Some retailers do not wish to put that much work into the instrument. Contrary to public opinion, there is not a lot of profit in lower priced mandolins. Some dealers refuse to spend the labor to get them right. I do not say that is the right thing, but it is reality.

There are a few of us who are more concerned about the instrument being right when it gets to the end consumer than some profit. In our shop we setup anything before it ships no matter the price. We also offer bridge or tailpiece exchanges if the buyer wishes. We see the mandolins and see the ones for the artists as well. The artist mandolins are no different from any others. They are not hand picked, they are just shipped. They get the same treatment you do.

One of the things that has amazed me about the Loar products is the artists that have asked to be a part of the Loar family of artists. They endorse the instrument because they like it. I don't see an artists line up for the other products in the price point. We are talking about A list players and not someone beginning or hoping to make it some day. These guys are legends and have asked to endorse the product. That says something about the product.

Each person has their taste and find what they want in any level of instrument. In addition, our tastes will change over time and experience. If everyone wanted a Loar, they could not get one. They could not produce that many. It is good to have a choice between the Loar, Kentucky, and Eastman. Each will have different strengths and weaknesses inherent in them. Then again, so do the 25,000 dollar mandolins. That is a good part of the joy of the journey in mandolins (and guns) to find the ONE that suits us for now. Maybe for life, but at least for now. It is certainly no different for handguns either. There are a lot of good ones out there, but each shooter has his/ her preference. I guess it is just like mandolins!

[Andrew B. Carlson]

1. Kentucky
2. The Loar
3. Gibson
4. Silver Angel

I think................3 sounds the best though.

[Ron McMillan]

But isn't the setup work and final QC just being done by the American retailers and not the factory? Steve and Robert are not employees of The Loar, for example. They are independent businessmen. The extra care is because the retailer is willing to invest the extra work. Every non-US case of complaint I've seen on the forum, it seems the retailer basically just acted as a shipper.

(My bold highlights above)

EXACTLY my point. Why only make sure that instruments destined for the American market are properly (or even basically) set up, when all the duds sent out around the world are damaging the brand they are working so hard to promote?