Review and comparison 'The Loar LM-700 VS'

[Schlegel]

I know from doing my own mandolins that recordings make for tough comparisons- nothings beats live in person.
But I'm willing to say which sounded better on my speakers- most favorite is first.

melodic recording my preference is 2, 4, 3, 1.
Chops it's 4, 1, 2, 3.

[almeriastrings]

Yes, obviously tracks like these have limitations. Fully recognise that. One of the 'biggies' is that people hear them on different systems, from really poor computer speakers upwards. The actual recordings were made using Neumann KM184's, into an Apogee Ensemble (which has really clean, very neutral preamps) and they were checked on Dynaudio professional speakers. They are not 'optimised' recordings... which normally, you would do, working to make each instrument sound its absolute best by means of mic selection, placement, and post processing. I'd normally even use different string sets on these.... accuracy and consistency was the aim (as far as practically possible). Definitely hearing them 'live' behind an acoustically transparent but optically opaque screen would be the ideal, however, as would more randomisation...

Despite the limitations, though, I think some differences come through well.

[houseworker]

It is not easy, is it?

I'll list which mandolins were used on which tracks tomorrow.

Tomorrow's been and gone, please put us out of our misery!

This past week I've ordered and now received a Kentucky KM-1000 Blackface from Amazon in the US - they had a very good deal on offer. Obviously they sent it with no final set up, in a Saga box as I imagine it gets sent to dealers. It was loosely strung but the bridge wasn't fitted. But as soon as I positioned the bridge and tuned up the instrument was entirely playable, and no further set up is going to be needed.

The workmanship and finish is superb, the only slight disappointment is the back's rather poor flame, but I rather expected that with the black front.

[almeriastrings]

OK!

Track One: The Loar LM700

Track Two: Kentucky KM1000

Track Three: Silverangel Distressed F

Track Four: Gibson F5 Fern

CHOPS IN THIS ORDER:

1) The Loar
2) Silverangel
3) KM-1000
4) Gibson F5 Fern

A couple of points... I had not played the KM-1000 for a while, and being Red spruce, it does tend to need 'waking up' after a break. It is a very punchy and clean sounding mandolin. The F5 is very new, only left the factory a month ago. It too needs a bit of playing in, but is a very, very nice mandolin already. Loads of punch and great balance. Give it time... the Silverangel is about 18 months old. It is a very rich instrument with a lot of low end. Very different, but suits some things perfectly. Great on old-time stuff. The Loar I thought did very well in this company. It certainly did not disgrace itself. Excellent value in terms of sound, if you can accept the obvious issues with finish/setup.

[John Kinn]

Well I'm glad I didn't put my December wages into the betBut i have to say:That Silverangle is a very nice mandolin...

[John Kinn]

Come to think of it, they all are!

[joni24]

This past week I've ordered and now received a Kentucky KM-1000 Blackface from Amazon in the US.

I, too, just ordered a Kentucky KM-1000 (used, from one of the Mandolin Cafe classified ads). Haven't received it yet, though, so I'm really itching to hear how it sounds. This thread was fun and a real eye-opener as to how Kentuckys and Loars can hold their own against the big fellows. I must admit that I thought the KM-1000 did great in the melody test, but fell a little short in the chops. Hopefully with more warmup it can produce a deeper richer tone...

almeriastrings, thanks so much for putting all this together, very interesting!

[Schlegel]

Thanks, that was quite an interesting test. Turns out that for me the Gibson had the best combined score. The Silverangel was for me just a little better in the melodic test, though. I think my belief that this is really a Golden Age for affordable mandolins remains true- you can do pretty well on a budget these days.

[almeriastrings]

They (KM-1000) are certainly a very nice instrument.. I doubt you will be disappointed.... they veer more in the "Loar-like" (Lloyd, that is) direction than some others. Quite powerful and 'dry' sounding, at least, those I have heard and played tend to. Fit and finish on those (and the KM-900 and 1500) is outstandingly fine, and consistently so, according to the examples I have had a chance to check out. Newer instruments with Red spruce tops really do take some playing in often... same with guitars. We have a custom martin OM-42 from 1999, and it was quite 'glassy' for a long while... in these last 2-3 years, though, it sounds totally different. All the punch and headroom of Red spruce, but with some warmth too... that one took quite a while to 'get there', but it was worth the wait! You get a bit more instant gratification with Sitka and Englemann, I think.... I like all three, in fact. Just different flavors, so to speak. If I get a bit of spare time over the holidays, I might re-run this experiment with three very similar (on paper) instruments, the Gibson F5, the Jim Triggs '23 and the KM-1000 again....maybe a Monroe tune and a nice ribbon mic would be a good match there

[houseworker]

I must add my thanks for a very informative (and entertaining) thread. There doesn't seem to be a great deal of distance between your own conclusions and those of Joe and Robert as far as The Loar goes.

joni24, will be watching out for your report on your KM-10000. Hope it's as good as mine.

[KarlM]

Very interesting...1 in the melody and 3 in the chop sounded like they had the same kind of tone to me, distinct from the others, so it was surprising to see they were different! Just goes to show how playing style affects the sound of certain instruments.

[Big Joe]

I am not sure Kentucky KM1000 have "Red" spruce or Adirondak spruce tops. The Kentucky website says it is American spruce. That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Most likely Sitka and that is what they sound more like. I certainly will not argue the issue, but if it is not advertised by the manufacturer as Red spruce, then it is not likely to be. Sitka is far more prevalent and would be more like what was used in the late 20's which is the mandolin they are attempting to emulate with this model.

I don't know that it makes much difference to anything, but unless there was some real way to determine it is red spruce as opposed to some other spruce it is most likely not red spruce. Why would Saga or Kentucky not advertise it as red spruce? The concept of "American Spruce" is interesting. They do indicate the maple is from northern Michigan, but make no reference to the species or specific location where the spruce comes from. Just from America. That does not mean much and can cover several types of spruce.

[almeriastrings]

This was the specification when the one I have was purchased:

Kentucky KM1000 All Solid Mandolin
Solid, hand-carved and graduated select red spruce top
Solid, flat-sawn, hand-carved select highly flamed maple back and sides from Northern Michigan
One-piece maple neck with dovetail neck/body joint at the 15th fret
Nitro-cellulose finish in a traditional 1920’s sunburst
Ebony fingerboard with M.O.P. dot position markers and 29 fret extension over the body
Ivoroid binding on all edges
Rosewood peghead overlay with Kentucky script and original-design “Flower Pot” inlaid in pearl
Vintage-style bridge with small adjustment wheels
Traditional 2-screw truss rod cover plate
Perfectly shaped M.O.P. nut
Highly polished nickel-silver frets
Silver-plated, engraved tail-piece with leather insert
High-quality, nickel-plated Gotoh tuners with engraved plate and removable buttons .

I do note that the current web description differs. I have no idea when that changed.
Here is an old web page from around the same time:

http://www.12fret.com/new/Kentucky_K...ndolin_pg.html

[almeriastrings]

Interesting.... it looks like there has been an unannounced and recent spec (or just wording?) change at Kentucky. From what I can tell, this seems to have happened around the time the KM-5000 appeared. Previously, the two "top models" (the KM-1000 and KM-1500) were described in Saga literature as having Red spruce tops, now, the KM-1000 is said to have an "American spruce" top, which as Joe rightly points out could mean anything, but typically would be Sitka. The KM-1500 and the KM-5000 are still currently listed with Red spruce tops... and many retailers continue to use the previous wording when listing the KM-1000:

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/KM1000.htm

http://www.fiddlersgreenmusicshop.co.../kentucky.html

http://www.folkmusician.com/Kentucky...nfo/KM%2D1000/

Has there really been a change, or have they merely changed the wording?

[Andrew B. Carlson]

You could always contact Rich Ferris at Saga. He posted in this thread about the KM-5000.

My KM-1000 was made before the wording change, so I remain hopeful.

[Rob Meldrum]

Fantastic thread! I wish the sound samples could be posted with a poll so you had to guess which was which before being shown the results. I think you would find very few people would be able to reliably separate the least expensive from the most expensive mandolins. And very nice playing, by the way. Rob

[Clement Barrera-Ng]

Interesting.... it looks like there has been an unannounced and recent spec (or just wording?) change at Kentucky

The same thing happened with KM-900 also. When it was first announced in December '09 all of the literature specifically mentioned red spruce as being used as the top wood. See this announcement on the cafe:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/news/pub...s_001163.shtml

But then some time in 2010, Kentucky had changed the description to Select Spruce, which prompted the following thread in December '10:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...M-900-top-wood

It may be impossible to determine when the change was made, and whether the change took place for both KM900 and KM1000 at the same time. Does anyone know approximately when the description was changed for KM1000?

[almeriastrings]

It was definitely pretty recent in terms of the KM-1000. Seems to have happened about the time the KM-5000 appeared from what I can tell. It is likely they only have so much Red spruce available, and reserve it for what they regard as their "best" models... at the time. It is unfortunate, though, that specs just get changed like this. Many dealers (as above) still list the KM-1000 with Red/Adirondack spruce. I am as certain (as I can be) that mine does have Red spruce, as it a) looks like it, b) behaves like it and c) sounds like it. It is also a few years old now when that was the current description. Not that I think a sitka or englemann topped mode would be "inferior", I think they can sound great - but it would be nice to have a bit more clarity with what you might get if ordering one.

[houseworker]

The current 2011 Saga catalogue (downloadable from their website) still shows the KM-1000 as being made from "Solid, handcarved and graduated select Adirondack spruce top. Solid, flat-sawn, handcarved select highly flamed maple back and sides from northern Michigan." It's found on page 69 of both the counter and the musical instrument catalogues. They don't make the same claim for the KM-900 which is listed on page 74.

There is however the usual disclaimer "Specifications are subject to change without notice".

[Big Joe]

I did not download the catalogue. I just listed what they post on the website, which is more accurate and up to date than the catalogue. The catalogues are usually only updated every year to two years. I don't make any claim to which is right, but the website would be more accurate most often. The little statement you found that says "Specifications are subject to change without notice" is true for most companies. Even at the Big G we had that clearly on everything. That way when something was not just quite right, they have an out. It was not an issue with mandolins, but more so with banjos. If it called for a particular tone ring but that one was not available, they would substitute for another. It was still a Gibson proprietary tone ring, but not always the one specified in the catalogue.

I don't know what they do now, but they are also not producing any banjos yet so that is not an issue. Every manufacturer will build according to what parts they can get and that is just the way it is. The biggest problem we had was actually getting the tuners we wanted for a particular model. The MM's were supposed to have Waverlies installed. We did not substitute even though there may be times when we could not get them for long periods of time. We would have to wait until they produced another batch to get them. That was one reason why the MM production was so slow. It was a hard to build mandolin, but getting everything together for it was not that easy at times.

[houseworker]

Here is the current listing for the KM-1000 on the Saga website. It still says that it is made from "Solid, hand-carved and graduated select red spruce top. Solid, flat-sawn, hand-carved select flamed maple back and sides from Northern Michigan."

[Aisha]

A11030470

Which I believe makes it a March 2011 build.

Allowing time for shipping from China, import and distribution, and this one did not hang around the store very long.

It is quite true that the store in question (Thomann in Germany) do absolutely nothing in the way of setup, and their own "QC" is limited to a) Open the box and check the mandolin, guitar or whatever is in there and b) check for obvious major damage. That's it. They do nothing else. I knew that when I bought it, of course. That is why I have always advised people, where possible, to buy from a specialist dealer who will provide pre-sale service. Unfortunately, in the whole of Europe, I know of no really specialist dealer who does this with this brand. So, anyone buying in Europe (27 countries) is pretty much on their own in this respect. You can find a number of dealers of Kentucky, Eastman, etc., but there are (now) very, very few places that stock 'The Loar' mandolin range. There may be one small store in Ireland that I heard had an LM400, LM600 and LM700 recently.
.

Hello everyone (que tal Andrew ?),

I am definitely not an expert so take this for what it's worth... I want to answer because reading this interesting thread makes me wonder if I have been particularly lucky (or if I'm deaf and blind but I don't think so ).

I'm also in Europe and bought my LM 700 at Thomann in May 2010 (I wrote about it in other threads). Concerning the purchase itself I encountered the same problems as Andrew (no specialized dealer), add to that I can't do 'lutherie' myself apart from changing the strings, and know no luthier for mandolins in my country (Belgium) or even not too far from the borders...

As for The Loar 700 I purchased at Thomann: the finish is similar to what was already described here, not perfectly perfect but not as Andrew's description either. Before buying it I had requested a minimum set-up from Thomann but it was refused. If I wanted a proper set-up ok but then I had to go to Germany and pick up the mando in their shop (+/- 6 hours driving from my place...). I bought it anyway because for 30 days I could return it if I wasn't happy no matter the reason, other than that I agree with ' better see it and try it before'.

When I received it the strings were old and one was slightly buzzing on one note but the bridge wasn't at a weird place like on Andrew's pics and the sound was very good after strings change (I listened to many other mandos on CD and online; I have less comparison 'live').

Only very recently I discovered a shop in Brussels where they sell guitars and Kentucky mandolins and seem to know something about mandolins. I took my mando there to check if there was any 'maintenance' to be made, and the retailer just adjusted the bridge very slightly (moved it like 0.3mm -sorry I don't know in inches, anyway, it is not much ). He said it was a 'good mandolin' without insisting but with a 'serious' face (translation: did not enjoy admitting it was a good choice because bought on Internet) and what struck me is how he talked about the unfair competition made by online shops. Well, my conclusion is that this retailer doesn't have the level of expertise of some of you who post on this forum (not specialized in mandolins), but knows nevertheless what he's talking about.

I enjoyed the opportunity to try 2 Kentucky he was selling. One A style (don't remember which one) I didn't like at all and the other one it's the 1000KM if I remember well (same as on the pics and costs around 1100EUR in that shop -around 1400USD). I thought it sounded very good too and was quite easy to play as well but I still prefer The Loar's sound and neck. Had I had the choice between the 2 at that shop, I think I'd have bought The Loar anyway. I can live with the cosmetic imperfections comparing with the sound of the Kentucky which I like too but not as much as The Loar's and which is more expensive.

Anyway, I enjoy reading about different experiences and opinions, and it's good to know that instruments coming from Thomann are not consistent and hardly checked, that's the least that can be said...

[almeriastrings]

I would add a few further notes on the Loar LM-700 discussed here. Since doing the initial tests, I have done quite a lot of work on this mandolin. It has had a fingerboard extension scoop and been given a 'speed neck' (huge improvement). The very thick neck has also been thinned down a bit, and that also makes it MUCH better and nicer to play.

Some observations you may find useful:

1) The fret slots are cut incredibly deep, so be VERY careful when 'scooping'. I think it is best to fill the slots, then scoop.

2) The fretwire is very soft. I can already see some wear on the first three frets...

3) Careful examination of the stock bridge revealed that the screw threads were not installed properly, and were out of the vertical. This was causing the saddle to 'bind' when adjustments were made. The CA bridge was a huge improvement all round.

4) The finish is incredibly thick. Next on the agenda (when I have more time) is to work on the top finish... it has to sound even better when some of that has gone away. I have seen bar tops with less polyurethane! They may as well have dipped it.

The LM-700 is now sounding (and playing) very well. Despite all the defects and flaws, at the price, it is a good buy - provided you are prepared to spend more $ (and especially time) to refine it. So far, I have spent around 14 hours working on it...with more to come. This is not a mandolin you can just take out of the box and expect to be in playable condition or sound its best. It most definitely needs a lot of work. If you do that, though, it is a good mandolin!

If it is the case that prices of the KM-1000 have gone right up (to $2,995), the LM-700 is an ever better deal right now.

Next.. I have a 'The Loar' LM-300 for comparison to a 'Kentucky KM-505'!! Then... two 'identical' KM-1000's....

[John Kinn]

I love these comparisons..keep'em comin!

[pickinNgrinnin]

My wife has been telling me for years that all Mandolins sound the same. Perhaps that explains why more people did not venture a guess on the audio files

I do though, miss the days when Big Joe would talk about Master Models, Ferns, etc. Interesting thread.

It's also interesting to note how lower priced Mandolins have evolved. Years ago, the buzz was about Kentuckys, then Michael Kelly's, then Eastman, and now the Loars. Ive not had the chance to play a Loar or a KM 1000 but after reading this thread, I would like to check them out.