I think i've been scammed-craigslist mandolin

[Jesse Harmon]

I would say the posts on this thread have been quite balanced and haven't seen too many pitchforks if any. I am a little concerned about a moderator taking a position in this difference of value judgement and then deleting posts.

[Vernon Hughes]

I never asked for anyones physical help,just posted as a watch out for the scam. I am gracious and thankful for the insight,advice and offers to help out but that clearly wasn't the proper way to address the problem.If I had accepted anyones offer to actually try a face to face recovery effort I would surely and gladly have offered compensation / reward,wouldn't have it any other way.

[Scott Tichenor]

I would say the posts on this thread have been quite balanced and haven't seen too many pitchforks if any. I am a little concerned about a moderator taking a position in this difference of value judgement and then deleting posts.

Mike does not have the ability to remove posts, only edit them when inappropriate content is present, so if you have further comments and concerns about his actions you should contact me privately. To my knowledge, no posts have been removed, only edited. I viewed what was removed from the post in question and agree with his actions because the comments were inappropriate for this forum. I don't ask that moderators exclude themselves from their opinions. If you wish to question the operation of the forum you should do so privately starting with me and I'll expect no further public discussion of this.

[brunello97]

Mike does not have the ability to remove posts, only edit them when inappropriate content is present, so if you have further comments and concerns about his actions you should contact me privately. To my knowledge, no posts have been removed, only edited. I viewed what was removed from the post in question and agree with his actions because the comments were inappropriate for this forum. I don't ask that moderators exclude themselves from their opinions. If you wish to question the operation of the forum you should do so privately starting with me and I'll expect no further public discussion of this.

Guilty as charged. I don't know Mike personally, but from my experience with him here I trust and respect him completely. I should have dragged in Tolstoy instead, but my brother has my copy of Anna Karenina. I was looking for a reference for the point I was trying to make and was being lazy and went for a cheap shot drawing on the 'political' for reference. I know that doesn't belong here and I apologize.

Mike did the right thing managing the conversations, as he typically does, and editing my post where he thought appropriate. He is right, I was wrong.

Mick

[Jim Broyles]

I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing. What is the difference, in the vast scheme of things? Just because you happen to know that the owner received the mandolin with the TP cover, how is it any business of yours what term he uses to describe the lack thereof in selling the instrument? Furthermore, "No case with this one" is quite unambiguous if you ask me. It means you don't get a case with it. Not, "I have a case but you can't have it," or any other nefarious, deceptive phrase. Sheesh. Sometimes the whole "we are not owners, merely stewards" crowd bugs me. The man can do whatever he wants with his legally acquired property, EVEN IT IT WERE A LOAR F-5, not that anyone in his right mind would.

[Ed Goist]

I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing.

Because it is categorically not true. Why not just "no tailpiece cover"?
Moreover, the use of this phrase cleverly (and falsely) implies that the seller has a long association with the instrument. (One could only know that a tailpiece cover is "long gone", if one has had a long history with the instrument.)

[Steve-o]

Jim, I don't think it is an egregious overture, but do think it is disingenuous at best to state that the "tailpiece cover is long gone" when in fact it was taken off that day. You may think that it is nobody's business how the OP chooses to describe the mandolin, but we are privy to the truth and the truth was bent. Why not say there is no tailpiece cover, rather than imply that the cover and case are missing?

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

[Jim Broyles]

Well, I do not agree. And you would not object either if you had not first known how Vernon got the mandolin. It is not deception, it is telling people that they will not get a TP cover. Period. There should be no debate about this. Who, in buying that instrument cares if the cover was taken off yesterday or 60 years ago? If it were me and I knew the guy had it, I'd ask him how much for the cover, but I'm going in with my eyes wide open and it isn't anybody else's business.

[Steve-o]

Jim, then let's agree to disagree. We obviously have different standards. I'm with Ed on this one.

[Pete Summers]

I have a question for those who objected to the wording "tailpiece cover is long gone." Why? if it's missing, it's missing. What is the difference, in the vast scheme of things? Just because you happen to know that the owner received the mandolin with the TP cover, how is it any business of yours what term he uses to describe the lack thereof in selling the instrument? Furthermore, "No case with this one" is quite unambiguous if you ask me. It means you don't get a case with it. Not, "I have a case but you can't have it," or any other nefarious, deceptive phrase. Sheesh. Sometimes the whole "we are not owners, merely stewards" crowd bugs me. The man can do whatever he wants with his legally acquired property, EVEN IT IT WERE A LOAR F-5, not that anyone in his right mind would.

Ditto to that. Mandolins are tools for musicians as far as I'm concerned, not religious relics. The owner can cut it into splinters and flush it down the toilet if he wants to. It's his. On an "importance to world" scale of 1 to 100, the fate of a mandolin, Gibson or any other, ranks about 999,999th in my book.

As for the new owner's language in his Ebay ad, it's a piece of ad copy folks, not a translation of the Bible. It is not necessary for the man to explain his whole life to a potental Ebay purchaser. He bought a mandolin, changed some parts for reasons of his own, and is selling it again. So what?

[Ed Goist]

Well, I do not agree.

Jim, as a long time member of this Forum, with a long history of playing, buying and selling mandolins, I respectfully disagree.

...Of course, your time around here is much longer than mine, and relatively speaking, I'm new to the mandolin world, but why should any of that matter with respect to my claims above?

[Potosimando]

There are two different trains of thought here, and technically both are correct. Our culture clearly reflects the divide:

<political content not appropriate for this forum>

And some of us don’t give a rip. Why fine tune every little thing that we write or say, for crying out loud; why not twist the truth a little here and there and clean up the story? This matter will never be resolved here or in our culture at large, and I proposed that we just drop it. Let’s get back to our interest in mandolins…a subject we can all agree on…sort of.

Most importantly (maybe the only thing that really matters): Thanks, Vernon, for alerting us to the potential scammer re. your original post—obviously we much appreciate such warnings, which was your original intent. That’s the kind of information that is productive around here.

[Jim Broyles]

For the record, length of membership on this forum has no bearing on my opinions regarding your or anyone's stated position on t his matter. I simply believe that it isn't anyone here's business how the OP decides to describe his items for sale on eBay.

Because it is categorically not true. Why not just "no tailpiece cover"?
Moreover, the use of this phrase cleverly (and falsely) implies that the seller has a long association with the instrument. (One could only know that a tailpiece cover is "long gone", if one has had a long history with the instrument.)

It is not categorically not true. It's ad copy, like Pete said. You happen to know the recent history of the instrument, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter. As I said before, it makes no difference to someone perusing that ad whether the cover is long gone, MIA or removed for re-sale, he/she knows it isn't included. That is enough. How anyone could possible care about how it is WORDED escapes me.

[Steve-o]

...This matter will never be resolved here or in our culture at large, and I proposed that we just drop it. Let’s get back to our interest in mandolins…a subject we can all agree on…sort of...

I respect your peace offering Potosimando, and agree that the argument could go on and on with little merit. That said, I do think Ed made an excellent point, that those of us in your first group are looking for an honest up-front buying experience often found on the Cafe and lacking on Craigslist and eBay. That is the very practical outcome of this discussion, and it's a personal choice.

[Jim Broyles]

Is this what you want?


For sale: 1922 Gibson A style mandolin. I bought this with the intention of removing any salable parts, while leaving the mandolin completely playable. I also put a better mandolin in the case so now you may buy it without a tailpiece cover, which I can get $150.00 for, and without the case which will bring more than $200.00.

[Ed Goist]

For the record, length of membership on this forum has no bearing on my opinions regarding your or anyone's stated position on t his matter. I simply believe that it isn't anyone here's business how the OP decides to describe his items for sale on eBay.
It is not categorically not true. It's ad copy, like Pete said. You happen to know the recent history of the instrument, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter. As I said before, it makes no difference to someone perusing that ad whether the cover is long gone, MIA or removed for re-sale, he/she knows it isn't included. That is enough. How anyone could possible care about how it is WORDED escapes me.

Jim, I can't for the life of me understand why you are disagreeing with me.
This is all just forum copy.
You happen to know the context of my statements, but that should have no bearing whatsoever on the matter.
How anyone could possibly care about how my argument is WORDED escapes me.

[Jim Broyles]

FWIW, I really don't see a parallel between your clever reiteration of my words and my original words. Apples and oranges. I'll let you have the last word.

[Steve-o]

Is this what you want?


For sale: 1922 Gibson A style mandolin. I bought this with the intention of removing any salable parts, while leaving the mandolin completely playable. I also put a better mandolin in the case so now you may buy it without a tailpiece cover, which I can get $150.00 for, and without the case which will bring more than $200.00.

Short answer: Yes. But you miss the point. I want honest sellers who do not twist the truth because it makes better "ad copy." And although it is perfectly legal and ethical IMHO, I do not like the "chop shop" approach to buying and selling instruments.

[Ed Goist]

FWIW, I really don't see a parallel between your clever reiteration of my words and my original words. Apples and oranges. I'll let you have the last word.

Allow me to explain further...
You seem to be implying that the rules regarding factual descriptions of items are somehow different in ads than elsewhere.
You also seem to imply that it's somehow unfair and improper to point out a misrepresentation when one has a thorough knowledge of the situation and knows it to be a misrepresentation. Hence, you seem to be expressing the opinion that these misrepresentations are somehow acceptable because most potential buyers will not know the difference.
My argument, to put apple to apples, is that the truth is the truth and a lie is a lie.
If embellished and inaccurate statements are acceptable anywhere, they become acceptable everywhere.