Searching for that certain "tone"

[joni24]

I'm looking to upgrade from my entry level Harmony to something in the <$1500 price range. Most important is the tone: looking for a certain "bluegrass" sound: a throaty low end with a deep woody bark, while at the same time having a clear, sweet high end (think of the typical David Grisman tremolo sound). Unfortunately there are not a lot of music stores around me (southern VT) that carry higher-end mandolins; to date I haven't found even 1 instrument that is exactly what I'm looking for. The good news is that I'm learning a lot about mandolins in general and about what I DON"T want in my dream instrument. So far I've I have been able to put my hands on Eastman 515, 604, 504, 315; The Loar 520, 400, 220; Big Muddy M11; Kentucky KM 250; Rigel A+. Here's what I've concluded so far:

- Instruments with f-holes are definitely better at achieving this desired bluegrass sound than those with oval holes.

- So far I haven't ruled out any particular style or shape, as long as it can give me the sound I'm looking for (F vs A, traditional vs modernistic)

- The finish appears to play a big role in the sound. The Loar 400, with a nitrocelulose laquer finish, definitely had a brighter & sweeter tone than the Loar 520 with its heavy "gloss" finish. However, (and somewhat confusing/contradictory to me) I preferred the throaty low-end tone of the Eastman 315 with its satin lacquer finish, to the louder ringing sound of the Eastman 515 with its high gloss nitro. lacquer finish. All the models I've tried so far have been new... not sure how much the sound can change once the instruments have opened up after extended play.

- I was disappointed in the quality control concerning The Loars that I tested. Obviously proper setup hadn't been done, since all 3 models buzzed on certain frets... the open D string even buzzed on one of them. (The store manager said he was going to return one of them to the factory since the amount problems didn't warrant them trying to fix it at the store.) At any rate, I found the slightly wider nut on the Loars to be somewhat of a disadvantage to me in being able to make the bluegrass chop chords... so I think that The Loars are now off my search list.

- The Rigel A+ that I tested had a lovely overall sound and sweet high-end, but didn't quite have the throaty low-end sound that I'm looking for. Am wondering if this would improve as the instrument ages... At any rate, the price of this instrument (new) is a little out of my league.

- By far the best instrument I ever played was a friend's Rigel G5. Clearly way out of my price range, but I'm wondering how the Gold Tone Rigels would stack up. Appreciate any comments or experience on this topic.

So, where does that leave me? Being so particular, I guess I need to keep traveling to music stores (and festivals) in a wider circle from home, until I can identify the instrument with that specific sound I'm looking for at my price point. From other threads in this forum, I know that I should test out the Eastman 615 & 815 plus the Kentucky 1000 if and when I can actually get my hands on any of them. Am looking for suggestions on used makes & models that I should be on the lookout for that might give me that desired tone. Thanks for any & all suggestions, this site is a wonderful resource!

[Willie Poole]

It`s really hard to put a finger on which mandolin would suit you by anyone except yourself...You know what you are looking for and sooner or later it will show up...As far as staying under $1000 try looking at the Kentucky KM-900, an A model that has all of the qualities that you are describing...At one time they were hard to come by but I don`t know what the waiting time is now...I am like you, I like to play any madolin before I buy it but I did buy my KM-900 without playing if first and had a 48 hour return if I didn`t like it but as soon as I tuned it up and stroked down on it I knew they were everything that I had read about them...for sure it is an instrument that will give you many years of pleasure, the KM-900 is made in the same factory as the KY KM 1000`s and 1500`s, probably made with the same materials and doesn`t have the scrolls to jack up the price....

Try and play one before you make up your mind, they are real nice, for the money I believe they are the best deal out there right now....

Good luck....Willie

[Brent Hutto]

Among factory instruments, don't conflate variability in sound with what are probably chance variations in spec-list options. There is way, way more that affects tone in a The Loar mandolin than what version of the lacquer they used on a particular model. You are only making judgements about a handful of instruments you play. There's no way for that to enable you to draw conclusions about what is causing the sound you hear.

Saying "nitro" won't guarantee sound. Neither will saying "Rigel" or for that matter "Adirondack" or "cast tailpiece" or any of the other stuff you can read off a spec sheet. Although I will say some words like "Gilchrist" are somewhat indicative of a certain degree or quality...

[billhay4]

Another point to remember is that a mandolin sounds different to you when you are playing than it does when you are listening to someone else playing it. I urge you to evaluate instrument using both methods. Get someone else to play it and stand in front and away from them a bit. It'll give you a more balanced perspective on how the instrument really sounds.
Bill

[Steve Ostrander]

I would play a Collings MT and then look for a used one.

[John Kinn]

From what you write, I think a used Gibson A9 would meet your needs.

[joni24]

My thanks to all for the great feedback so far! Steve O, all 3 of your mandos are on my list of strong possibilities. In your opinion, what makes the Collings MT stand out above the KM900 and the MD615v? I do love the fact that it's made here in the US...

[Rodney Riley]

Try to find a used Weber A-style. Made in USA and Mary Weber checks in on the Cafe too. Check out the group SHEL. Eva plays an A-style Weber. On one song she plays she sounds a lot like Chris Thile. It's not bluegrass, but I like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c40kX..._order&list=UL

[250sc]

Try a collings MT and you'll see how they compare to the other instruments you mentioned. I loved my MT but the Gibson A9 might be more like the bluegrass tone you discribed.

[f5loar]

I would just go with the KM1000 and end the hunt. Hard to beat quality and at a price you can afford. KM900 also good but if you got the F model on your mind better stick with an F model. I have found the 1000 to be far better on the bluegrass sound than any of the high end Eastmans.

[JeffD]

I would play a Collings MT and then look for a used one.

Excellent advice.

[Charlieshafer]

Just a second on the Weber "A"s, nice warm sound for the cash, used is always a good way to go, especially from the classifieds here.

[tr6drvr]

Excellent advice.

I'll third that opinion, though if you have scroll envy, consider a The Loar LM-700 with a CA bridge if you are looking for a dark woody tone. KM-1000 nicely made but IMHO it lacks that depth, with or without a CA bridge. You'll need a setup on just about any new mando and probably on a used one as well, so don't rule it out because it was buzzy out of the box.

[Michael Eck]

Have you checked out the stock at Maple Leaf Music in Brattleboro. They tend to have some nice instruments and are a Collings dealer. On the NYS side, both Parkway Music in Clifton Park and Saratoga Guitar in Saratoga Springs carry Eastmans.

[Charlieshafer]

A quick drive down to Amherst gets you to the Fretted Instrument Workshop, also with a nice inventory of various things, though I can't remember what outside of some old Gibsons. A good bit to look at, though, between them and Maple Leaf, and take the drive over to the Music Emporium in Lexington, Mass. Better inventory than the first two. A little driving, but nice scenery and good coffee shops, which some days is more important.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Having previously owned one,i'd second the choice of a Weber "A" style.The "Beartooth" i used to own,apart from being possibly the loudest Mandolin i've owned,had a deep,rich woody bass tone & the trebles were really strong.Only the fact that it had a neck problem that was going to take a long time to resolve,made me part with it.There's a stunning 2003 Beartooth for sale in the Classifieds - a good buy for somebody,that was Weber's top of the line "A" style,
Ivan

[Michael Eck]

Charlie,

Tony at Fretted Instruments carries Eastman as well, and he usually does have a few choice pieces from Gibson or that ilk in is used stock.

[Nick Triesch]

Any more, cost does not mean a lot. At my last bluegrass meeting I played a friends new Eastman A5 type mandolin. The fit and finish was terrific and the sound was at least as good as my Weber fern or better. All for only $450.00! (about $650 list) Folks are only buying expensive instruments because they want them.. The Chinese mandolins can sound as good as anything out there.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

Flatiron.

[Willie Poole]

Well if all of that don`t confuse the OP nothing will....Just play as many as you can and the right one for you will "speak" to you, it has for me a few times...

Also on todays classifieds there is a KM-1000 F model that is listed pretty cheap...Might be worth checking out....

[f5loar]

I would not hesitage on jumping on that KM1000 for under $1000. The early ones were really good. Most cafe sellers allow that 48 hour approval so if you have trouble actually finding one to try just have it shipped to your door. And then if you don't like it ship it back. You are only out of shipping fees which would likely be less than your gas fees to go find one nearby.

[Andrew B. Carlson]

+1 for the KM-1000. I bought one in the classifieds a couple months ago. Best decision in an instrument I could ever make. It's a hoss!

I had the same desires as you do for tone and sound and decided on a KM-1000 long before I got around to buying one. Not only does it have the traditional bluegrass f-style specs (red spruce top, flamed maple B/S, flat fretboard, full florida extension, and "the _____" on the headstock. haha), but it gets rave reviews.

I've had fun experimenting with getting that ballsy bluegrassy sound out of it too. Picks, strings, tone gard etc. Currently it's got Sam Bush Monels for the G and D and J75's for the A and E. I also find that the D'Andrea Pro Plecs and the less beveled corner of my Blue Chip TAD60 give it more woody punch without the trebley snap that can be annoying.

[joni24]

Yes, I agree that that KM-1000 may be just what I'm looking for. Can't find any to test out within a 3 hour radius from my home, so I may just take the (educated) gamble. Have e-mailed the seller, now waiting for a reply. Hopefully it's not already taken! This video helped me make up my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do1Y0...eature=related (along with all the great feedback from this site). Wish me luck!

[Jazzbird]

I would just go with the KM1000 and end the hunt. Hard to beat quality and at a price you can afford. KM900 also good but if you got the F model on your mind better stick with an F model. I have found the 1000 to be far better on the bluegrass sound than any of the high end Eastmans.

I am just the opposite on this opinion. I much prefer the high end Eastmans' over the Kentucky 1000. That is the core problem with asking advice. You have some people telling you to go with a Kentucky, some say a Gibson A9, and others a Collings MT. Then I muddy the mix by telling you I prefer Eastman over Kentucky. The issue is that everyone has their own idea of "tone". Their idea of what matches your discription will vary. Trying to describe tone is like trying to catch smoke. That does not make any of the suggestions right or wrong. It is simply a reflection of their taste and what they prefer. The problem is, their taste and my taste may be very different from yours. It is a mistake to take another persons opinion of what they think you will like, and then order that item and hope their ears match yours. Last summer I walked into Gruhn's in Nashville with a preconceived idea of what I was going to buy, and walked out with something very different. Only by playing and comparing can you make the choice that is right for YOU. You need to journey to a store where you can play the options you desire. I firmly believe that is the only way to find an instrument that matches YOUR idea of "tone".

[John Kinn]

Yes, I agree that that KM-1000 may be just what I'm looking for. Can't find any to test out within a 3 hour radius from my home, so I may just take the (educated) gamble. Have e-mailed the seller, now waiting for a reply. Hopefully it's not already taken! This video helped me make up my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do1Y0...eature=related (along with all the great feedback from this site). Wish me luck!

The clip just shows jazzbirds point. Of course, the soundclips never replace playing or listening live, but here are my impression, FWIW: The KM 1000 is the loudest, with the most" bluegrassy" tone and cutting power in a banjo-infected environment, the 700 is in the opposite camp, with a warmer and rounder sound, with the Eastman somewhere in between. The OP was looking for a "bluegrassy" tone, and I understand why she would choose the Kentucky. Personally I prefere the rounder, more mollified tone of the Loar. It's all in the ears of the beholder. So, Joni 24, if you like the sound of the KM1000, grab it and enjoy! And good luck with your purchase!