Add the CA Bridge Yes or No

[allthechad]

I've recently ordered my first mandolin, a Loar LM-400, Christmas has expanded my budget a bit should I add a Cumberland Acoustic bridge or wait until I've played it a while?

[almeriastrings]

You can play them without... but it is a big improvement. You could manage for a while, but I'd try to get it done at the earliest practical/financial opportunity. If you are buying it from somewhere that will do a proper setup in advance (and believe me - you need that with these) then getting the bridge done at the same time would make more sense.

[John Adrihan]

Add the CA Bridge Yes or No

YES

[Malcolm G.]

Allthechad,

In the numerous threads here concerning the CA bridge, I have never seen a negative comment.

So, can't hurt.

On thing I'd suggest - why don't you play your mandolin a bunch so you get to really know what it sounds like? Then, when you have the bridge installed properly (without changing your strings), you'll be able to hear the difference.

Then you can let us know.

Then you start saving up for a ToneGard.

[Big Joe]

The best thing is to have a god setup done when you have your bridge fit (usually a part of fitting the bridge) with new strings. Not much use ongoing to all that work and then putting dead strings back on.

In answer to your question, YES. It makes a really good mandolin great.

[houseworker]

You've ordered from folkmusician.com. If they've not yet set up your mandolin get them to do it. If it's already on its way to you I'd see how you find it with the original; fitting a replacement bridge is a job for a professional.

[allthechad]

Thanks for all the responses. I went ahead and called Folkmusician and left a message asking for the bridge. So I hope they haven't already set it up and everything. Or done too much work. I appreciate all the help as always.

Thanks,
Chad

[Matt Spencer]

I swaped out the stock bridge on my "The Loar" LM 600 VS to a Cumberland and it made a big improvement.

So yes.

[pefjr]

What improvements could it make? Ebony is ebony. If the bridge had string adjustments, then intonation could be improved, perfected in fact, but as far as I see, the bridges are the same but 5 times more expensive. Am I wrong? Show me and I will be glad to buy one.

[Big Joe]

pefjr... you are certainly wrong. The bridge is a critical element in the sonic path on a mandolin... or any other stringed instrument. The difference in the quality of the wood, the shape of the feet and wings, the way it is fitted to the top, the saddle material, the saddle size (thickness and height), the intonation cuts done right, and the way the saddle fits the base and hardware used to fit the saddle can all be different and these elements can radically alter the output of the instrument. While the bridge is supposed to be the last thing the consumer should worry about, it is one of the things that should be considered very soon.

There have been many experiments with bridge design and materials, but the original Loar style bridge... for most mandolins... is still the most effective. However, the bridge must be adjusted to match the mandolin, and I mean in more ways than just fitting it to the top. While fitting to the top is essential, one may sacrifice quite a bit of performance by not having all the other elements fit to that particular mandolin. Just as proper shoe fit is essential for the health and happiness of humans, so the bridge is to the instrument.

Remember though, it is not just the bridge, but the way it is adjusted to your particular instrument. The stock bridges on many mandolins are not of sufficient quality, and if the bridge is good enough, it may not be adjusted for optimal performance for that instrument. It is amazing what a little work by someone who knows what they are doing can make to an instrument.

[Kip Carter]

Since my Ibenez 511 bridge is too tall and requires shaving to have optimum action at the lower frets. CA seems like a costly upgrade for a $200 mandolin. But hey I'm putting $40 strings on it. What are 'good' alternatives for bridges that I should perhaps consider? I'm thinking that rather than have my luthier shave it down perhaps I should just replace it with a bridge that I can set lower than the existing bridge. This would save the cost of the luthier's effort and perhaps result in a better instrument overall? What say you?
Regards,
Kip...

[pefjr]

pefjr... you are certainly wrong. The bridge is a critical element in the sonic path on a mandolin... or any other stringed instrument. The difference in the quality of the wood, the shape of the feet and wings, the way it is fitted to the top, the saddle material, the saddle size (thickness and height), the intonation cuts done right, and the way the saddle fits the base and hardware used to fit the saddle can all be different and these elements can radically alter the output of the instrument. While the bridge is supposed to be the last thing the consumer should worry about, it is one of the things that should be considered very soon.

There have been many experiments with bridge design and materials, but the original Loar style bridge... for most mandolins... is still the most effective. However, the bridge must be adjusted to match the mandolin, and I mean in more ways than just fitting it to the top. While fitting to the top is essential, one may sacrifice quite a bit of performance by not having all the other elements fit to that particular mandolin. Just as proper shoe fit is essential for the health and happiness of humans, so the bridge is to the instrument.

Remember though, it is not just the bridge, but the way it is adjusted to your particular instrument. The stock bridges on many mandolins are not of sufficient quality, and if the bridge is good enough, it may not be adjusted for optimal performance for that instrument. It is amazing what a little work by someone who knows what they are doing can make to an instrument.

Ok, so what is the 55 bucks for? quality of wood? I have not seen any literature from Cumberland. Is their choice of wood more dense, less dense, what does the $55 buy? The bridge looks the same to me ,as an ebony I bought for $10 on EBay , I am not arguing about set up or fit. BTW, is there such a bridge for mandolin with individual string adjustments like a Jazz guitar?

[Big Joe]

Yes. Quality of wood, quality of cut, quality of hardware, quality of guy standing behind the bridge. While you may not be able to see the difference in the 10 dollar bridge on eBay, once you set the next to each other the difference is quite obvious. There is a reason so many of the high end mandolins use the CA bridge on their instruments, including Gibson MM's. If the 10 dollar bridge were acceptable you can bet those builders would be using them, and so would I. However, they are not the same and will not perform anywhere near as well.

[Paul Statman]

But hey I'm putting $40 strings on it. What are 'good' alternatives for bridges that I should perhaps consider?

Hey, Kip ~ Those $40 strings are going to wear out long before a $50 bridge. A Steve Smith (CA) bridge is definitely a worthwhile upgrade (and relatively inexpensive one). The only other one I am aware of is the Randy Wood. There is probably not much difference between them.

[Paul Statman]

Ok, so what is the 55 bucks for? quality of wood? I have not seen any literature from Cumberland. Is their choice of wood more dense, less dense, what does the $55 buy? The bridge looks the same to me as an ebony I bought for $10 on EBay. I am not arguing about set up or fit. BTW, is there such a bridge for mandolin with individual string adjustments like a Jazz guitar?

Isn't any 'all solid, carved spruce top' mandolin (using the same tree types) costing $135 the same as say, a Nugget, a Givens or a ____?
What does $135-250K buy?

[pefjr]

Isn't any 'all solid, carved spruce top' mandolin (using the same tree types) costing $135 the same as say, a Nugget, a Givens or a ____?
What does $135-250K buy?

I see mucho difference in spruce grade and how it is carved and cut for tone, not so much , hardly any difference in ebony other than slight difference in color. In fact blindfolded, I doubt I could hear the difference in a rosewood or ebony bridge. Aged(20 yr. or more) rosewood may be even better than ebony for a bridge.

[Mike Bunting]

I guess that all those guys like Steve Gilchrist, Chris Stanley, Mike Kemnitzer, Don MacRostie, Sim Daley et. al. don't know much about woods and mandolin building. Rosewood is used primarily on very inexpensive mandolins.
"In fact blindfolded, I doubt I could hear the difference in a rosewood or ebony bridge." probably says more about your ear than it does about the tonal qualities of ebony or rosewood.

[pefjr]

I guess that all those guys like Steve Gilchrist, Chris Stanley, Mike Kemnitzer, Don MacRostie, Sim Daley et. al. don't know much about woods and mandolin building. Rosewood is used primarily on very inexpensive mandolins.
"In fact blindfolded, I doubt I could hear the difference in a rosewood or ebony bridge." probably says more about your ear than it does about the tonal qualities of ebony or rosewood.

It might, or it may say a lot about profit margins. No one has yet put words as to what cumberland bridges improves. Maybe you would try? Does it improve tone? , bass, volume? ? A few said noticable or big improvement but they have not answered my question. Again, I am not arguing set up, I am asking what improvements has a cumberland improved? Put a word on it.

[Ron McMillan]

Again, I am not arguing set up, I am asking what improvements has a cumberland improved? Put a word on it.

But you are arguing about nothing worth 'defining'. What value is a word on the issue, compared to the Cumberland being THE bridge of choice for the world's top builders?? We can talk about it until the proverbial cows come home, but these master builders put the Cumberland on their masterpieces.

If you were building a custom car, and had a choice of two engines of the same power output, one from Kia and the other from BMW - you'd choose the Kia because it's a fraction of the price and it's made from the 'same' metals?

rm

[pefjr]

But you are arguing about nothing worth 'defining'. What value is a word on the issue, compared to the Cumberland being THE bridge of choice for the world's top builders?? We can talk about it until the proverbial cows come home, but these master builders put the Cumberland on their masterpieces.

If you were building a custom car, and had a choice of two engines of the same power output, one from Kia and the other from BMW - you'd choose the Kia because it's a fraction of the price and it's made from the 'same' metals?

rm

I think you are right, it's not worth defining, because no one has or can. I question it, because it is not logical. Ebony is not even a true tone wood and the builders use it because of the hardness factor and it will last longer. It will give you a different tone but not necessarily a better tone than rosewood which BTW is the best tone wood. How one can see an immediate improvement is beyond me. I guess the cows are ready to come home now.

[Schlegel]

Well, when I put one of Steve's bridges on a vintage Gibson, it was noticeably louder- my family immediately commented on it without knowing what I had done. Since not all original bridges are the same, any difference will depend on the quality of the original bridge. Quality of machining matters, quality of wood (density and grain orientation) matters.

Since a bridge lasts decades it's a cheap upgrade to try. I'm not saying a CA bridge is better than every other bridge in the world, but IME, there are many that it is better than. One tactic to keep from spending tons of money is to put one on a budget mandolin, and if you upgrade to a better mandolin, put the original bridge back on, keeping the better bridge for the new mandolin. This assumes you can do the fitting yourself.

BTW, ebony is a tonewood. it's just not available in the quantity needed for large instruments, but there are extant classical mandolins and guitars made of it, as well as many, many wind instruments.

[almeriastrings]

"Ebony is ebony"... not quite. There are different species of ebony for starters, and different origins. There are also different parts of the log (heartwood vs sapwood, for example). Density makes a difference to sound for one thing. Many of the cheap bridges are made from poor quality, low density ebony that is heavily stained to look better. The CA bridges I have seen and used have all been made from what I would rate as very high grade ebony. High density, good natural colour, and free of cracks/wormholes. I have removed cheap 'factory' bridges that had both just filled with paste filler then stained over... these same bridges are prone to saddle warp and splitting near the adjustment screws. The CA bridges are indeed very nicely made, are accurately cut, and will last. They are not the only good bridge out there, but they are reliable and consistent.

Hey.. your mandolin... you could put an aluminium bridge on there, of for maximum hardness, stainless steel (or a piece of firewood with a bit of fretwire on top)!

I do not change bridges unless I think they need changing. I will say that I do hear a difference, though, between various bridges. Some better, some worse. If you already have a 'good' bridge you will probably hear little or no difference. If you have a poor bridge, though, you should hear much more clarity in the treble, more volume, and (often) some low-end extension. I have a repair/setup job that just came in this week with a home-made bridge fitted... it sounds horrible! Thin, harsh and reedy.



I bet this will sound better with a CA bridge!!!!

[allthechad]

Wow! I had no idea what a discussion this would spark. Haha But I love all the opinions and info, it's great! It's awesome to see passionate people speaking about the thing they love. This really cool.

[Ron McMillan]

I think you are right, it's not worth defining, because no one has or can. I question it, because it is not logical. Ebony is not even a true tone wood and the builders use it because of the hardness factor and it will last longer. It will give you a different tone but not necessarily a better tone than rosewood which BTW is the best tone wood.

Yes, Mr Gilchrist, we understand you need to talk, but at the moment I have Mr Kemnitzer, Mr Daley and Mr Stanley on hold, and Mr Dudenbostel is on the line right now; no, I don't understand it either, but it's true, Pefjr does know more than all of you master builders put together.

[Fretbear]

Since my Ibanez 511 bridge is too tall and requires shaving to have optimum action at the lower frets. CA seems like a costly upgrade for a $200 mandolin. But hey I'm putting $40 strings on it. What are 'good' alternatives for bridges that I should perhaps consider? I'm thinking that rather than have my luthier shave it down perhaps I should just replace it with a bridge that I can set lower than the existing bridge. This would save the cost of the luthier's effort and perhaps result in a better instrument overall? What say you?

A Cumberland Acoustic "Low Boy" bridge. As far as luthier charges go, why pay to have a undoubtedly cheap bridge shaved down when you could spend the money to have a professional-grade one fitted. Better yet do it yourself do it free. It can also be moved over to any other new mandolin that you happen to upgrade to. I have as yet to hear anyone who has ever employed a properly fitted CA bridge say that they regretted it. I would say it is even more advantageous to put one on a poorer sounding instrument than a higher grade one. Fact is, you can't know what your mandolin is capable of sounding like if it doesn't have a high-quality bridge fitted to it. For what they do, they are worth twice as much as Steve charges.