IRISH BOUZOUKI (OCTAVE MANDOLIN) Kits

[Kip Carter]

I've done a bit of searching on the web and I'm not finding anyone that offers a quality IRISH BOUZOUKI (OCTAVE MANDOLIN) kit. I'm not ready to go at one as my first building effort will be an A Style mandolin (shopping for that too but can find resources for that).

Anyone know of a good kit for an Octave Mandolin? My thought is that as I hone my building skills on these projects that my first build (an A Mandolin) will hopefully provide a better grade instrument than my entry level mandolin I am learning to play on now. Then I am looking to moving to an Octave only because from what I understand it uses the same tuning/fingering as the mandolin just with a longer neck with more frets. There is a whole lot of noobie in that but that is my basic understanding.

My end goal is that after these first two builds that I would have two usable instruments with not a lot of differences in how they are played but with different tonal qualities. Plus, a good deal of experience and understand of construction technique I will want moving forward to doing higher quality builds later.

As s precursor to the first build I'm doing some setups on inexpensive new mandolins for friends and family. Then I am planning to do some work restoring some older mandolins. I love the bowlbacks and have the opportunity to put some TLC into a couple that will be my first challenges.

I welcome comment on my strategy and if anyone does have sourcing information for a Octave build that would be great!

Thanks muchly,
Kip...

[Joe Mendel]

http://donkawalek.com/pages/octave-kit.php

[Kip Carter]

Thanks Joe! I was afraid I'd have to jump in deeper than my waders would handle. That looks like what I'm looking for. Bit more pricey than a similar mandolin kit but I would imagine that is because of the it being less popular with folks. Put that down on my list of potentials.. thanks again!
Regards,
Kip...

[Kip Carter]

I found another kit available here at Music Makers, but I don't think it looks as nice as the other one.
Regards,
Kip...

[multidon]

Don Kawlek runs an instrument making camp in Appomatox Virginia in early April. You get 5 days lodging, meals, one of his instrument kits, and he personally guides you through the building process. Cost is 850 dollars I think. You can build a mandolin, octave mandolin, or banjo. Seems like a real bargain. I wish i could go. You would spend at least that much for a luthier made OM plus you get the experience and knowledge-priceless! See his Web site for details. NFI.

[multidon]

The Musicmakers kit has the neck and neck block as one unit, with notches cut in for the ribs. Not the best construction. You would never be able to do a neck reset.

[Kip Carter]

Don Kawlek runs an instrument making camp in Appomatox Virginia in early April. You get 5 days lodging, meals, one of his instrument kits, and he personally guides you through the building process. Cost is 850 dollars I think. You can build a mandolin, octave mandolin, or banjo. Seems like a real bargain. I wish i could go. You would spend at least that much for a luthier made OM plus you get the experience and knowledge-priceless! See his Web site for details. NFI.

Ironically I have already emailed him on my quest for kit information. I saw the camps and saw the kits and all and like you, I would never have time to go with my schedule. Interesting... So my thought that the Music Maker was a bit on the cheap we probably accurate. I will mark that one off the list... Back to only one option, Don's.. Thanks
Kip...

[Audio Artillery]

Not to disrespect those who only do kit building, but I suspect after building one kit you'll probably be ready to dive in on a scratch build. I did a scratch build and have never done kits builds. You sound like you've got a brain in there, you should be fine with plans and maybe a book. I found the scratch build to be very, very fun.

[Kip Carter]

Not to disrespect those who only do kit building, but I suspect after building one kit you'll probably be ready to dive in on a scratch build. I did a scratch build and have never done kits builds. You sound like you've got a brain in there, you should be fine with plans and maybe a book. I found the scratch build to be very, very fun.

No disrespect taken (at least from me). My only thought on the two kits was two fold and in light of my end goals in building, my thought was that the kits fit.

My intent is to build scratch so that I can use specific wood selections and add elements to the build that I might think are of benefit to me or someone else. On the other hand I'm a new mandolin player and bought a very low end import to get me started. Okay I'm started, confirmed and off and running, I love my little import beater and am suffering from MAS on Rogue budget (okay maybe not a Rogue budget but it's difficult to transpose beer budget to mandolins). Sooooooo

The intent was to get an A kit build it and have a better quality daily instrument to play sooner rather than later. Then, I thought of the versatility of the Octave and thought okay so how about a kit there too. The concept was that with a kit I could turn out something some levels better than I play now (in both cases), have it sooner rather than later, and gain a lot of valuable knowledge in the kit build that could translate to a scratch build.

Now on further investigation and the input I've gotten so far from yall on this thread, My thinking is changing slightly. Here is where I'm headed after the two restorations are complete (pending any adjustments based on new information from others more knowledgeable on the topic):

1. Buy and build an A (likely with an oval sound hole).
2. Do my first Octave from scratch.
3. Then perhaps go into an A with f holes.
4. Then perhaps consider an F style.

The reason I'm beginning to consider a scratch build for the first Octave is that the kits seem to be pricey compared to mandolin kitting prices and I can put higher quality materials into the octave for the same money if I scratch build it.

Very helpful yall!
Kip...

[Steph]

Kip, talk to Don regarding the OM kit, I went to the camp last year, had a blast and came home with a pretty reasonable good sounding OM. It sounds like your woodworking skills are way beyond mine, I'm sure a chat with Don will provide more data for you to make your final decision. I enjoyed the camp so much I'd even consider going again to see if I could improve on the cosmetics/fit/finish although I'm not sure my liver could handle the load!.
Hopefully not hi-jacking the thread (too much) Multidon mentioned another kit where the neck and neck block are a single unit. I believe that's the construction on my other octave/cittern (Sobell) and from what I can see is also used by some of the other high end UK builders like Forster and Shippey - so maybe it's just different design/construction from the start - I know Don hates the idea!

[Bill Snyder]

Classical guitars use a integral neck/neck block design. It is called a Spanish heal and goes back a LONG time. Of course classical guitars done have the string tension that mandolin family instruments do.

[epicentre]

If one can buy good wood and good instruction material, and do a scratch build, that would be the way to go IMHO.

A lot of kits are very costly relative to the quality of the end product, and if things go south, one is oftentimes left with no assistance, which is why a lot of research pays off.

Best of luck Kip.

[Audio Artillery]

1. Buy and build an A (likely with an oval sound hole).
2. Do my first Octave from scratch.

This sounds like a good plan to me. I'm considering doing an octave myself, but probably won't be till after summer.

[multidon]

A lot of kits are very costly relative to the quality of the end product, and if things go south, one is oftentimes left with no assistance, which is why a lot of research pays off.

One should never build an instrument with the saving of money as the main goal. Often you won't save much. You do it for the joy of the accomplishment and to be able to play an instrument that is built exactly the way you want it. I would never advise someone to do a scratch build as their first building experience. With a kit you can have a lot of the hard work already done for you and benefit from the experience of those who have done it before. The OM kit that Kawalek sells for 460 dollars results in an instrument that is worth easily in the 1000 dollar range and even if you attend the camp for 850 your are ahead financially, along with all that study with a master luthier which is priceless. Even if you build the kit without the camp Kawalek offers great support and guarantees that he will support you and help you with any problems.

Classical guitars use a integral neck/neck block design. It is called a Spanish heal and goes back a LONG time. Of course classical guitars done have the string tension that mandolin family instruments do.

This is true enough. I guess I am a bit prejudiced against this design because it is also associated with inexpensive fiddles the Germans cranked out as fast as they could in the early 20th century. It works fine until the neck angle needs to be reset, then you can't. I imagine that it does work well for classical guitars because of the low tension. I would worry about that design with the much higher tension of steel strings. Why don't you see any steel string guitars using that design? I understand there are well respected makers in Europe using that design. Maybe someone familiar with those makers will chime in and tell us how they deal with the problems. One thing in its favor, it does speed up and simplify the building process.

[Kip Carter]

Well the camp is out for me. Simply not possible with the health issues in the home I can't be gone for any more time than absolutly necessary. I would love to attend one as they seem like a blast, but it simply isn't going to happen. So i'm down the the alternatives. Get the OM kit from them and build it... or build from plans. I hear and value your input here I'm a little torn and perhaps more study will resolve those conflicts.

Option 1 - the kit:
The kit can be bought with or without hardware. I am not sure what hardware comes with it, but it is highly likely that I could upgrade the hardware from the kit if I got my own. Inversely the cost for that hardware in proportion is likely to be greater than simply getting the equivalent hardware that comes in the kit. The kit gives me a shorter path to follow with less opportunity for error simply by merit of the fact that some of the work is done for me.

Option 2 - Scratch build:
More difficult. More of an investment in time. Greater opportunity to introduce imperfections. However, it has the opportunity to introduce upgraded materials (not saying I would want to) such as a different choice in wood for the top or back, etc.

I think I'm leaning towards a hybrid of the the two options. I may use components in the kit to template other materials to swap out. I"m thinking most of the top wood used. Again, I'm not convinced that even that would be necessary to satisfy my drive for my own touch to the resulting instrument. It's only something for me to consider.

Great input people.. thank you so much!
Kip...

[otterly2k]

I'll chime in with support for Don Kawalek's kit. As mentioned above, he provides assistance as needed (and is a very good teacher as well), and the quality of the materials is quite good and well prepared. If you wanted different woods for any reason, I think Don would probably be amenable and would just price a revised kit accordingly. The hardware provided with the kit is probably low end (it was when I did mine) - you can always check with Don about that if you're not sure. That said, it has held up fine and I have had absolutely zero problems with any of the hardware. You can always use the hardware that comes with the kit and upgrade them later if you want to... tuners, bridges and tailpieces are easy to swap out.

Too bad you can't do the workshop. It's a great experience for a newbie builder.
KE

[Rick Lindstrom]

Well, no one said this, but I will.

Gather in Graham McDonald's two books (The mandolin Project and The Bouzouki Book) and give them a good read. You'll pretty much be ready to go provided you have some prerequisite wood butchering skills.

If you don't have some previous woodworking experience, a kit is the logical way to go. Then do a scratch build. LOL

Rick

[Barry Wilson]

I think I am sold on this kit idea. sounds like a lot of fun in the making. I would love to add an octave mandolin... hmmm

[Kip Carter]

I think I am sold on this kit idea. sounds like a lot of fun in the making. I would love to add an octave mandolin... hmmm

Like minded soul... gotta love it!
Kip...

[Joe Mendel]

I'll second Graham's books. You may not follow the plans as written, but there is a lot of info to ruminate on there. He's getting set up to sell them as e-books: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...Bouzouki-eBook

[Steph]

I think it was Karen (Otterly) who mentioned about the hardware with Don's kit, I'd agree it's not "high end" but clearly meets the needs of the majority of folks who are trying this building adventure for the first time. I've always seen the goals of Don's camp to get everyone to the last day with a playable instrument in the white. So with the ultimate "fit" of the end result being somewhat unpredicatable it does not make a lot of sense to buy a set of Waverley tuners and a James tailpiece at the outset. They can be added later if the end result justifies it.
If you do upgrade the tailpiece get one that takes both loop and ball end stings - gives you the widest possible choice of strings. The other thing I'd add is side markers to fret board - I'm going to retro install them on mine.
Enjoy the process, as a couple of people have noted above and if you search previous stings on building kits you'll find a lot of positive comment for Don's support - as long as you can handle his sense of humor!

[epicentre]

@multidon:"One should never build an instrument with the saving of money as the main goal. Often you won't save much. You do it for the joy of the accomplishment and to be able to play an instrument that is built exactly the way you want it. I would never advise someone to do a scratch build as their first building experience. With a kit you can have a lot of the hard work already done for you and benefit from the experience of those who have done it before. The OM kit that Kawalek sells for 460 dollars results in an instrument that is worth easily in the 1000 dollar range and even if you attend the camp for 850 your are ahead financially, along with all that study with a master luthier which is priceless. Even if you build the kit without the camp Kawalek offers great support and guarantees that he will support you and help you with any problems.""


Au contraire, mon frere: One should do exactly as one wants as long as it hurts no one. My suggestion of a scratch build was based on the cost of wood to build a FLAT TOP octave or mandolin, or whatever. Carved top, you're in a different ball park.

By following directions carefully, and taking one's time it's possible to build from scratch on the first try. Of course I defer to your superior talent and knowledge, and do apologize for what could possibly be construed as an opinion. Sorry.

I've built from kits (IV - very nice), and from scratch, but probably nothing compared to the wonderful items you have created.

And, although I do like the IV kits, and will probably build another few, as I have a market for them upon completion, I don't find it necessary to shill for anyone or anything, as some here are wont to do.

Carry on.

[multidon]

epicentre- My apologies if you took offense to my opinions on scratch building. I certainly meant no offense. To clarify: I myself have only built from kits and never anything from scratch. I know my limitations and do not have a complete wood shop so I need to have the wood butchering done for me. I am overwhelmed by scratch building. I am certainly no expert nor do I claim to be one. Far from it. I'm just a guy who has built a few kits. That's all. If I come off as more than that I sincerely apologize to everyone here for that. I do enjoy studying and reading about building instruments. One of my life goals is to go to one of the Kalawek workshops. I sure don't know of anyone doing anyhing else like that.

I didn't mean to try and tell anybody else what to do or how to feel. But people post questions looking for advice so I and others do our best based on our experiences. If someone wants to build an instrument ONLY to save money, with no other purpose in mind, I say go for it. But I think they might be disappointed. You don't save as much money as you think you will, especially if you build a kit and (again, in MY experience) you have to upgrade the hardware because what's in the kit is cheap to keep costs low. My other point is, if someone builds and that is the ONLY motivation, they are really missing out on best part- the knowledge and love of the instrument you gain from the intimate experience of forming it with your own hands. Personally, I just don't know how professional luthiers can sell them. That's why I could never be a professional. I would want to keep everything I made!

[Kip Carter]

I think it was Karen (Otterly) who mentioned about the hardware with Don's kit, I'd agree it's not "high end" but clearly meets the needs of the majority of folks who are trying this building adventure for the first time. I've always seen the goals of Don's camp to get everyone to the last day with a playable instrument in the white. So with the ultimate "fit" of the end result being somewhat unpredicatable it does not make a lot of sense to buy a set of Waverley tuners and a James tailpiece at the outset.

No... but StewMac tuners would in my mind make a lot of sense in the initial build along with better stings. I've been corresponding with Don about the kits and at this point i'm fairly certain i'm going to go with his kit for my first OM build, but two things that I will likely swap out in the initial build are those. The tuners because in my way of thinking every time you install and re-install tuners you weaken the head and if I know that I would like a bit better tuner like the ones from StewMac make a lot of sense. The string swap is only because when it comes to strings in my mind there is no excuse if you have preference for other strings.

As a result I don't see me asking Don to change any items from the kit inventory. Rather when I get the kit I will sit the components that I don't choose to use aside and use what I fell more comfortable with.

The camp... well I would love to attend but that isn't going to happen as I mentioned earlier. But I also would not be willing to rush the finish of my mandolin to completion in the brief period of time the camp is for. I know it produces wonderful results given the circumstance under which the instruments are constructed (fairly fast from start to play). However, my first build will stay with me till my dying day and likely then be passed on to one of my kids, and hopefully then on to the following generation someday. With that in mind, while I'm sure my building skills will improve in subsequent efforts later, I want the first build to be as absolutely best it can be. The finish is will likely spend a couple weeks alone on. I will do everything possible to have a final result that I can enjoy for some time and then when my kids and my kids kids pick it up as their own they will feel like this isn't just grandpa's instrument; it is a part of them, part of their family, and something they can cherish and not just a okay enough first try.

I really wouldn't be interested in turning out something in a week if it meant that after done I was constantly seeing where I could have done better if I had only take a little more time to to it better. No doubt that the possibly exists that eventually I may be able to whip out a high quality instrument record times, but for now, I would much rather take my time and get it as right as I can the first time.

Kip...

[multidon]

Kip- I think that you made a good choice. I am tempted to do the same as you. I also would swap out the hardware. I see your point about taking your time. I also think doing your work with Don right there to guide you would be cool, but I see your logic as well. Good luck with it and please post pictures when you are done!