Bob Taylor disses Tenors!

[MikeEdgerton]

I can't see tenors being made by any large guitar manufacturer until Madonna plays one at the Super Bowl...

And that certainly ties in with post #9 above.

[Martin Jonas]

I checked out the deluxe edition of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea from the library recently, and in the bonus features there's a short B&W promo that includes a better look at Kirk Douglas' tenor guitar ... before he hands it off to the prop master. There's another feature about the music which includes a photo of what looks like the recording session for "Whale of a Tale," and the guitarist is playing a standard guitar. So the tenor was, in the end, just a prop.

Possibly so, but I've just come across a nice photo of Kirk Douglas taking tenor guitar lessons on a Harmony archtop, from teacher Dick Roberts (a former sideman of Hank Penny and Spade Cooley):



Even if this is a publicity photo, it's still a nice one.

Martin

[Joe Mendel]

One thing to remember as well, is that the Taylor factory has more in common with an auto assembly factory than it does with a one or two man luthier shop. It is an assembly plant as much as anything else, to make a small change like a wider fingerboard (or different bumper) is very expensive in a large factory & the cost of the changes has to be absorbed over many units. For Bob to decide to make tenors part of his line would be akin to GM adding a truck to it's van assembly plant in Wenztville, MO, which they are doing, at the cost of multi-million dollars. It might not cost Bob that much, but the investment would likely never pay off. Bob and his accountants have to figure what the ROI would be (and that costs money too) then decide if it is worth the risk. If someone calls me or any other one man shop, we can think it over and say yes or no, we would have to make our money for new design, forms & jigs, on that one instrument, and we could decide on the basis of whether we think it would be interesting, fun, or in some other way rewarding. If Bob just started making things he thought was cool, he would probably run the company into the ground quickly. Having said that, Bob could probably have his custom shop build anything they wanted as a one off, but the price would reflect the investment.
I intend no knock on Taylor, they are an amazing company and have always treated me exceptionally well in the dealings I've had with them, but the reality is, it is a factory.

[JeffD]

That be the one. That is to say, it certainly looks like a Regal headstock decal to me.
...

I have a Regal Rex tenor. The decal is warn away, but the shape of the headstock is the same.

In fact somone is coming over this afternoon to see about maybe buying it. If she does, it will jump start my MAS budget Irecently emptied. No wait I had to ding the new tires budget on that purchase , so no, this will replenish that budget. Have to keep myself honest.

[multidon]

One thing to remember as well, is that the Taylor factory has more in common with an auto assembly factory than it does with a one or two man luthier shop. It is an assembly plant as much as anything else, to make a small change like a wider fingerboard (or different bumper) is very expensive in a large factory & the cost of the changes has to be absorbed over many units.

Good point and I certainly understand that the projected units sold have to justify the cost of retooling an "assembly line". But how does Taylor, or any other company for that matter, determine the potential market for a new product? Take for example the introduction of their 8 string baritone in 2010. The way it was described in their press releases, it sounds like Bob and his team just brainstormed ideas, sort of like "Wouldn't it be cool if we made a 9 string?" and such. Bob describes the 8 string baritone in his publicity blurbs as "a peanut butter meets chocolate kind of serendipity" (very close to an exact quote I believe). Now, did the Taylor company actually do market research and ask people if they would buy such a guitar before they started making it? Or did they take more of a "this is a cool idea, build it and they will come" philosophy? I could certainly be wrong, but it seems to me the market for a baritone guitar is a niche market to start with, let alone an 8 string version. Of course that guitar costs $3,200, but I would be really curious to find out how many units they actually sold. So seriously, do they do market research to figure out what kind of products people want? Or do they (not just Taylor, but instrument companies in general) just make what they want? Has anybody following this thread ever been asked by a manufacturer "What kind of new instruments would you like to see us make?". I know I've never been asked that question.

[Ed Goist]

I have been on both the Fender and the Gibson 'marketing list' for a long time (probably because I meticulously and accurately fill out all of my warranty/marketing cards). As a result I have frequently received questionnaires, both paper and electronic (especially from Fender) asking me about products I would like to see developed.

Finally, I think the real reason as to why the major manufacturer don't produce a tenor guitar is excessive supply...
* Blueridge/Gold Tone/Aria and modest vintage brands have the market covered up to $600
* Vintage Gibson/Martin/Regal/Kay/Harmony/Stella, etc. have the $600 to $2,000 market covered.
* Private, small shop luthiers have the +$2,000 market covered.

This leaves very little room.

[MikeEdgerton]

* Vintage Gibson/Martin/Regal/Kay/Harmony/Stella, etc. have the $600 to $2,000 market covered.

If you can give me the names of those guys spending $600.00 to $2000.00 for the Regal, Kay, Harmony and Stella tenors I'd appreciate it.

[Ed Goist]

I thought I should include the "Non-Gibson-Non-Martin" vintage brands to fill the gap up to $750 (which seems to be about the low-end for finding a tenor from one of the two big guys).

Granted, these haven't yet sold, but here are a couple of examples of +$600 overachievers:
* $800 Harmony
* $700 Kay Kraft

Mike, I do see what you mean, these brands can't push themselves into the "Gibson/Martin" price range...Interesting.

[Ed Goist]

I thought I should include the "Non-Gibson-Non-Martin" vintage brands to fill the gap up to $750 (which seems to be about the low-end for finding a tenor from one of the two big guys).

Granted, these haven't yet sold, but here are a couple of examples of +$600 overachievers:
* $800 Harmony
* $700 Kay Kraft

Mike, I do see what you mean, these brands can't push themselves into the "Gibson/Martin" price range...Interesting.

[MikeEdgerton]

What things are listed for doesn't show you where the market is, it's the completed sales. I think we had a Martin in the classifieds a few weeks back that was offered for less than that Harmony. The vast majority of Harmony, Kay, Harmony built Stellas and Regal tenors are basic entry level instruments that won't be in that price range and honestly shouldn't be.

[Ed Goist]

Thanks very much Mike. Great to know.
H. Weissenborn seems to be another vintage tenor guitar producer whose instruments are listed in the Gibson/Martin range. Are these premium tenors?
Also, are there other premium vintage tenors worth seeking out?

[mrmando]

There's a Weissenborn tenor that's been on the L.A. Craig's List forever ... You aren't going to find enough of those to draw any conclusions. Weissenborn made mostly Hawaiian-style slide guitars.

I'm with Mike: Harmony, Stella, Maybell, Kay, et al. should be bought and sold for $300 or less. Not premium brands.

[MikeEdgerton]

If anyone is really hankering for an 800.00 tenor here's a Gibson (NFI).

[MikeEdgerton]

Or this Gibson for 750.00 (again, NFI). There seem to be several decent Harmony tenors that are a bit overpriced but under $400.00 Buy It Now as well. Beyond that the sky appears to be the limit, there are some open auctions that will go off below 300, maybe 200. There doesn't appear to be a lack of tenor guitars available.

[Ed Goist]

...and two vintage tenor guitars currently being offered in the Cafe Classifieds (also, NFI):
* 1927 Martin 5-21T Tenor Guitar
* 1937 Gibson TG-50

So, as we can see...Lots of supply. Hard to argue with Bob Taylor.

[MikeEdgerton]

This arched top Kalamazoo (made by Gibson) caught my eye this morning during one of my normal searches. A little more (NFI). Maybe a little over-priced but it looks like its in good condition.

[draino]

Take for example the introduction of their 8 string baritone in 2010. The way it was described in their press releases, it sounds like Bob and his team just brainstormed ideas, sort of like "Wouldn't it be cool if we made a 9 string?" and such. Bob describes the 8 string baritone in his publicity blurbs as "a peanut butter meets chocolate kind of serendipity" (very close to an exact quote I believe). Now, did the Taylor company actually do market research and ask people if they would buy such a guitar before they started making it? Or did they take more of a "this is a cool idea, build it and they will come" philosophy? I could certainly be wrong, but it seems to me the market for a baritone guitar is a niche market to start with, let alone an 8 string version. Of course that guitar costs $3,200, but I would be really curious to find out how many units they actually sold.

The 8-string baritone was likely not built or brought to market for the purpose of profit, or to address needs of the market. It was likely initially built in the custom shop based on a "wouldn't it be neat?" idea, and then brought to market for "let's show everyone that we continue to innovate and do interesting stuff that the market didn't even know they might or might not want" purposes. So even if they lose money in selling that instrument, it still has value from a marketing point of view for establishing Taylor as a forward-thinking guitar company. Comparing the 8-string baritone, a new and novel instrument, to a tenor guitar -- one that has been around for a long time -- isn't very useful.

I don't see how building a tenor guitar is going to help Taylor in terms of reputation or in terms of broadening its customer base, so the only other goal would be profit...and that would be really tough to acheive.

[Bob Borzelleri]

John-
Not second guessing at all. Taylor can make whatever they want. Bob is obviously successful and has great business sense. He built that company from literally nothing to what it is today. I do think the tenor market is bigger than "12". Otherwise, if the market is so tiny, why are Gold Tone, Blueridge, and Breedlove making them? I assume they are making money. Thank you Ed for posting the article in its entirety. One important thing I left out is that Bob left the door open just a crack for a special run of GS Mini tenors someday. Chances are low, but I played a GS Mini and for a small guitar they sound great! If they ever offer a tenor version for $499 I would be first in line.

+1 on the GS Mini tenor possibility. If Taylor made one, it would join my GS Mini in a heartbeat.

[Bernie Daniel]

And of course as everyone knows Ozzie Nelson played a tenor guitar back up track on some of son Ricky's early 45 records!

[Tenor Chick]

Sadly, they won't be making ukuleles any time soon either...I asked.

[Charles E.]

If I ever find a second hand Taylor GS mini or Big Baby for a low price, I will convert it to a tenor. Just because.

[FL Dawg]

Kind of interesting to read this and I agree with Taylor. There are already loads of tenor guitars in the world, plenty enough for us crazy guys who use them. I'm surprised you don't see more women or kids playing them as a sing-along learning tool.

[Galimando]

I'm loving this conversation, but was anyone besides me put off by the really long 24-1/16" scale length of the Breedlove tenor? (I saw the Breedloves mentioned upthread, I thought I'd bring it up again.)

[Ted Eschliman]

My favorite kind of tenor playing:

[BradKlein]

What a great video, Ted. And a sweet kitchen table performance.