Whoa Boy....can't wait until this gets discussed..

[MnRoss]

Looking at the sellers other auctions makes me think it's a pawn shop or something like that. Looks like nice wood on the mando and for what it's worth even if it's not a 24 Gibson or a Gibson at all it's fairly nice work and might sound great. Be fun to try 1st..

[f5loar]

yes it would be nice to pick on it before buying it. Usually not possible on ebay auctions. I don't see anything Gibson about it except maybe the TP. Possible the fingerboard is an F12 of some year in 50's or 60's. And why that type fingerboard? Getting an F5 fingerboard should not be that hard. The truss rod cover is not at the right place for a Loar, is one big red flag. The builder obviously was pretty good and got many of the details right and yet was so far off on many other details that would not have been that hard to get right. Is it a $2000 copy or a $5000 copy? Really hard to tell on this one. So many times backyard builders will get the neck angle wrong making it hard to play. He didn't drill the tuner holes right so I suspect many details are not spot on Loar spec. Could this be a late 60's attempt by such well known luthiers as Wood,Kirk,Warner, Pag, Mont, Ward,Shue,Thompson?

[Bernie Daniel]

Going on what f5loar just said maybe it was purposely built that way in the 1960's on request by someone who wanted a vintage looking (Monroe like?) mandolin but who also thought that the cut-off fingerboards on the F-12's of the day made a lot of sense in terms easier picking?

It looks to me like it has a normal 1 1/16" nut -- if that fingerboard was an F-12 board with the wider nut I'd be strong tempted to bid aggressively on it.

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=Bernie Daniel;1023125] headstock script and also that flowerpot -- MOP flower and abalone pot was never used by Gibson either was it? They used abalone for the water in the pot on some models?
In fact doesn't the overall shape (length to wide ratio) of the headstock look a bit off?

A bit stretched out looking from nut to first flare of headstock. Also, no dot for the i connected to the bottom of the capital T in The (or was that teens ?)

[baptist mando55]

yes it would be nice to pick on it before buying it. Usually not possible on ebay auctions. I don't see anything Gibson about it except maybe the TP. Possible the fingerboard is an F12 of some year in 50's or 60's. And why that type fingerboard? Getting an F5 fingerboard should not be that hard. The truss rod cover is not at the right place for a Loar, is one big red flag. The builder obviously was pretty good and got many of the details right and yet was so far off on many other details that would not have been that hard to get right. Is it a $2000 copy or a $5000 copy? Really hard to tell on this one. So many times backyard builders will get the neck angle wrong making it hard to play. He didn't drill the tuner holes right so I suspect many details are not spot on Loar spec. Could this be a late 60's attempt by such well known luthiers as Wood,Kirk,Warner, Pag, Mont, Ward,Shue,Thompson?

If it came from any of the builders f5loar it could be a real hoss of a deal at 2000 dollars all pretty good builders

[MnRoss]

And poof it's gone. Maybe he got the appraisal from Gruhns. CVSALES1 (the seller) appears to be a pawn shop in Austin Tx. http://www.cashpawnsales.com/index.html is their website and his Ebay store is called CVSALES1.

[Links]

And poof it's gone. Maybe he got the appraisal from Gruhns. CVSALES1 (the seller) appears to be a pawn shop in Austin Tx. http://www.cashpawnsales.com/index.html is their website and his Ebay store is called CVSALES1.

I think we could probably eliminate a couple of the builders mentioned as their work was never even close to as good as this (not to mention any names). I wonder if anyone (maybe even Gruhn's guys) mentioned using a mirror to see if anyone signed the mandolin top. I know Hutto did that and probably some of the others too. As someone mentioned earlier, this might be a heck of a mandolin for $2000!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Maybe a Sargeant? Weren't the earlier ones The Gibson logos?

[f5loar]

I was listing builders that I know started out using "the Gibson" logos in their early creations. Pretty common back in the late 60's and early 70's. I meant to add Sargeant to the list but drew a blank since he is not an east coast builder I am familier with. But I've never seen any of those guys use the wrong pearl inlay for the headstock and most of them got the truss rod postion better than this one. Not sure why they tied the reverse "Monroe" style binding with a Feb. 24 serial no. The penciled in "F5" and serial no. is in the style Loar/Gibson used so this mandolin was made to decieve it is a real Gibson. The only homage they were paying was to themselves for more money for using the gibson name and fake label. Many of the builder I mentioned did not go the extra mile and put in fake serial no. labels. Some even used their own labels and others didn't put any labels in it and may have signed the top as mentioned.

[mrmando]

Well, it is back on eBay now, minus the photos of the label and headstock logo.

[fretbored]

I won the second auction of this mandolin on Ebay... got it for what I thought might be a fair price... waited with anticipation for the arrival...

And then the mando arrived...

Wow. This is a good one.

I had played some very good F5 copies/tributes/fakes/counterfeits over the years and know that some very good builders have done some good ones... I took a chance here and am VERY happy with it so far. I wanted a good player that I could get hold of within my budget... this is definitely that at a bare minimum.

So far I cannot find any signature on the underside of the top, but need to get in there with a better light and mirror.

Some of the binding finish work is a little rough/sloppy, but most of it is similar/better than i've seen on some pretty good mandos (Huttos, Bryant, etc.).

The flame on the back and sides is absolutely gorgeous... nice sunburst in person. The finish seems to be pretty well applied and not too thick. There is enough play wear on it (pick area, arm above tailpiece, and top edge on back) to make me think this was picked a bunch by someone... for a good many years.

There was a pickguard on it at one point, but gone now.

The fingerboard looks to be from an F12 for sure... I am not sure what other parts might be. The binding is all definitely not F12 binding. It is sidebound. There is the ghost of an older flowerpot inlay that can be seen under the finish in just the right lighting angle... it was maybe a 1/2 inch lower than the current base of the flowerpot. Strange...

Tuners are good quality and pretty steady, but not sure the exact type/model. Can anyone tell what they are? Tailpiece is an old Gibson I think.

The mando plays great all over the neck with pretty dead on intonation. I haven't found any dead or funky spots across the strings or even way up the neck. It was built VERY well and plays better than some pretty good mandos that i've played.

I have only played it around the house so far... going to a jam tomorrow and can't wait. I don't play a whole lot the past few years, but finally found a good pick lying around last night to really dig in with. It sounds phenomenal. The tone is very woody in the right way... not sloppy/thuddy/bassy. Woody with clarity of voice and some sweet overtones. I've only played 3 Loar F5s personally, but... this thing sounds like what I remember from the better one!

Now... I gotta find out who built this thing and am looking for any and all clues. The way it plays and sounds... I am getting a hunch it was built by a very good luthier in his early days before making a name for himself. A whole bunch of them did it that way from what I gather...

Pictures of some of the details to come!

[fretbored]

Played it some more this evening... even more impressed (other than my chops bein out of practice). Very focused in the midrange with tight bass and sweet highs alongside. From mandos I've run into and a bunch of 'tone studying' online with clips and vids, I have to say it sounds most like a Givens or Gilchrist.

Anyone have any pics of early Givens F5s or conversions?

Looking at a lot of top shapes I'm seeing a different shape to the top carving... less of a recurve than and more of a slope than many builders. Several Givens pictures I've seen have a very similar look to the top plate.

Gonna be a fun mystery to solve...
L

[pefjr]

And I thought all the crooks were in the Violin business! This is iron E with a capital. The Crook , in his efforts to capitalize on a "Name" outshines himself and make his instrument so good, or equal, and in some cases exceeds his model, then dies before his talents can be recognized. I have an Italian copy Violin, made in early 1900s' that fits that description. I also have a Dauphin Classical guitar made in Japan in the 70's. My two instruments can not be replaced, they were made to duplicate quality and the maker succeeded, and then nature took over with the proper aging of the woods and voi-la'........

[jim simpson]

I have to add my voice in praise of this mandolin. I got to play it earlier this evening as fretbored brought it to the jam. It is everything he says it is in terms of playability and tone. It has volume to spare. I wish the Chris Warner Gibson copy I used to own had the sound of this one, I would have kept it. This was a great purchase and a keeper, very lucky buyer.

[Justus True Waldron]

any chance for a sound clip? Interesting saga

[fretbored]

I will try at some point to get a sound clip up, and definitely more pictures.

I have to think that at some point, someone on Mandolincafe has had their pick laid to these strings! The Bobelock case was cleaned of stickers when they shipped it to me, but at one point had the Mandolincafe bumper sticker on it.

Another possible clue is below... on a thread called "Post a picture opost a picture of your fake gibson", mandodan posts a picture of what I believe strongly to be the same mandolin and says "here is one I recently sold". I talked to him and he thought it might have been a Vern Bryant, but honestly didn't remember because he also had several from unknown builders. (I get the feeling alot of good mandos pass through his hands...).

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...ur-fake-gibson

Jim - it was great jamming with you last night! I had a blast and that Collings is a good mandolin. It was great to hear you picking my new mando and finally hearing the sound coming back at me.

I wasn't so sure about the volume of the mando in the jam at first, but I tend to play a bit quieter than I should. Once I dug in, it really responded and came alive over the two hours. Gotta get back in practice!

[fretbored]

[IMG][/IMG]




Someone has played this thing up high on the board...






Tried to get some different angles to show a shape of the top... not a whole bunch of recurve







Old Gibson tailpiece? (Not Loar era I know... but wondering from what period?)



The points are all done with binding across them



Alot of nice flame in the sides

[fretbored]

The neck shape is wonderful to play... very lightly finished






Only a label for the model and serial number... no signature label. Can't find anything underneath the top with a mirror yet

[fretbored]

Notice the 'ghost' of a flowerpot inlay a little further down... fingerboard looks like an F12, but did any have flowerpots on them?



Old holes from a pickguard



Nice maple... pics don't even do it justice at all



Elevated fingerboard

[fretbored]

Played...

[fretbored]

Sorry about the order of the images... i'll try to add some commentary about the idiosyncracies with some of them!

[fretbored]

I was lucky enough to spend some time with f5loar a few Fridays ago and sample some of his mandolins... what a great evening! I am happy to say I was pleasantly surprised to see and hear how well my mystery mando compared with some of his beautiful old instruments. Some of the details were way closer than I would have imagined, and some were off in surprising ways.

I am hoping he'll chime in with some commentary that might help boost the mystery along...!

[fretbored]

Here are a few pics from my visit with f5loar...



f5loar with my mystery mandolin... playing some Monroe licks I believe



My mandolin on the couch with some good company... from left to right: 4/25/1923 Loar F5, 7/9/23 Loar F5, mine, 3/31/24 Loar Fern w/Virzi, non-loar Fern (forget the date on this one)



The above mandolins plus a Kentucky KM-1500 on the right... it wasn't bad!

[Darryl Wolfe]

To my eye, this mandolin is not as old as much of the discussion about it is indicating. There are certain nuances that point to inlay and binding materials that have only been available for 10 years or so at the max. The The Gibson and the Flowerpot are CNC cut by a noted company for a noted company

The execution of this points to someone intimately familiar with Loars and who had one sitting beside him as they built the mandolin. It is possible, but I highly doubt that it started as an F-12 or such. It is also possible that it is a re-do of a little bit older "do" to bring it closer to a Loar

[fretbored]

Darryl,

Thank you for the comments! I was hoping to eventually catch your eye on this one...

The comment about the inlay materials being stock CNC from a noted company are a new twist and i'm glad to learn that clue... same with the binding material.

Seeing the mandolin side by side within inches of a real deal July 9 Loar really opened my eyes on how close the execution was... the main things that were just really off are astounding, because they would probably have been easier to get right than some of the minute details that were executed very well.

After getting to compare the mandolin, I was very pleased to come to the same conclusion... that the builder had been around some Loar F5s and might have even been working from one. To hear you say the execution points to someone 'intimately familiar' sounds even better! Tom felt as well that it may be a 're-do'... that is almost definitely the case because the shadow of a flowerpot further down can be faintly seen when looking at the headstock at just the right angle.

I still haven't looked under that huge MM label for a signature, but a luthier friend with a steam needle is going to help me remove it hopefully within the week. It's obnoxiously large... the handwriting of the model and serial number are well imitated, but the fake serial number was from the 2/18/24 batch (probably) and most appointments of this mandolin jibe with a 7/9/23 Loar from everything i've seen.

In Tom's eyes (and easily seen when comparing to the wonderful pics you have posted in the Loar of the Day posts), the main things that were off are:

-The flare on the bottom portion of the headstock is too long as it curves and widens
-Truss rod cover position way too low
-Tailpiece cover
-Inlay width/materials
-Bridge
-Carvings at 15th fret too small (treble side way too small)
-fingerboard chopped and 12 fret dots too narrow
-tuners
-master model label way too big and 'flipped'
-no signature label
-heel 'point' carving

Oh yeah... and I learned about that incredible SMELL the old ones have...

Thanks guys for the attention!