Whoa Boy....can't wait until this gets discussed..

[fretbored]

I will post em very soon! I finally removed the big, badly done fake MM label and found the builder's original label underneath. I think his original inlay was reworked to The Gibson later on, but wanna try to make contact with him first.

[Jim Garber]

I love when you can actually get to the bottom of things like this. Excellent. Looking fwd to the updates.

[fretbored]

He is a top notch guitar builder and has done at least 19 or 20 mandolins. I say that because mine is marked at #19!

More to follow in the near future.

[Paul Kotapish]

I am not an expert, but the question comes to mind: Why? Why would someone obviously take so much time and pain to recreate a fake; to the point that it actually turns out to be something worth having?

There is a long and venerable tradition of making replicas of famous violins--down to mimicking the very specific coloring and details of distressing on well-known Cremona instruments. Some of these were undoubtedly intended to be passed off as genuine, but for many, the art of the re-creation was the point more than any great scam.

The tradition continues, with world-class luthiers making reproductions (aka "fakes") and world-class violinists purchasing them, although these days many luthiers include their own labels--sometimes in the obvious f-hole spot, other times in an area that can only be seen with a mirror by another luthier.

Back in the dark ages when Gibson mandolins were at their nadir and before the rise of so many great mandolin makers with international name recognition, a lot of fine luthiers made copies of the classic Loars and Ferns--with no particular intention to pass them off as genuine, but because a lot of good players were demanding classic-era-style F-5s that Gibson wasn't producing.

A lot of makers who went on to develop their own line with their own labels and logos on the peghead started off building accurate Loar and fern copies--down to the logo inlay and label.

The practice is somewhat akin to a player trying to learn all of Monroe's solos note perfect before going to craft a more personal musical style.

[fretbored]

Very well stated!

Almost all of the top guys did it with the Loar F5s (most of them pretty early on in the 70s)... Randy Wood, Bob Givens, John Monteleone, Nugget (Mike Kemnitzer), Wayne Henderson... and that's the cream of the crop (not to mention what i'd call some second tier names like Hutto, Sargeant, etc... Almost a rite of passage as they moved into their own techniques and styles.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I am glad this is solved. I am not very familiar with his work

dw

[Jim Garber]

Are we still waiting for the big drum roll and the name of this maker? Seems like Darryl knows. How about share it with the rest of us.

Maybe give us a hint or two and we can guess?

[fretbored]

It was built by Todd Sams in southern Ohio.

He lives a couple of doors down from Don MacRostie (Red Diamond mandolins), and they have worked together at Stewart Macdonald for many years. He's not far from legendary luthier Bob White either (several miles by the crow).

I got to talk with Todd for a short while about the instrument and he DID NOT do the Gibson inlay or the fake label that was overtop his original label. Still some history to the mandolin that I may never know, but i'm very happy with the builder.


Sorry for the additional suspense, Jim... I wanted to have a word with Todd on the instrument first regarding the Gibson inlay and label before I threw his name out there!

He mainly builds guitars and hasn't built an F style in years (too busy with the guitars). He has built guitars for Wyatt Rice and a number of others. Todd's a great multi-instrument performer and is playing again with the Rarely Herd.

[Jim Garber]

That is great news and you made an excellent purchase, it sounds.

[fretbored]

I had a very neat evening centered around this mandolin this past Friday night... the Rarely Herd was playing at the Pennyroyal Opera House in Fairview, OH (a great small bluegrass venue with a history of great bands that have played there). The luthier Todd Sams is once again playing banjo (and a little guitar) for the Rarely Herd...

I got to reunite this mando with the guy who built it back in 2001 and he (and I) got a real kick out of it. The pieces that had been 'reworked' since his construction were the label that covered his label, and the headstock inlays in total. He thinks he did this one with just a gold decal. So.... both the 'older' flowerpot that shows under the finish and the current flowerpot and 'The Gibson' inlay were done by someone later on.

I learned that the top is definitely Adirondack Spruce... he thinks he remembers getting that piece from Don MacRostie. He remembers finishing this one with a can of spray varnish that he found. He became a fan of side bound F5s as soon as he used that technique rather than top bindings! Todd said that he thinks he built around 20 F5s in total, but no longer builds Fs. With the time involved, he can turn out 3-4 guitars in the same time frame. He thinks he probably sold it for around $3500 originally, but would want $5500 plus at this point... IF he were to build any Fs. He does still build the occasional A.

Todd put it this way... when you live two doors down from Don MacRostie building Red Diamond mandolins, it's smart to specialize in guitars instead of mandos!

Now here's where the story takes another neat turn...

The current mando player for the Rarely Herd is a guy named Brandon Shuping... who happens to be a son-in-law of f5loar. Todd handed the mandolin over to Brandon to pick on some while they warmed up in a small dressing room. It sounded decent right out of the case... about 3 tunes in, it began to warm up...

Brandon's eyes and smile got a little bigger the more he played it... and I found that I couldn't keep a smile off my face as the red spruce woke up in the hands of a good player (I just don't have the same level of mojo...). To put it shortly... he liked it well enough that his Tucker stayed in the case thru the warm up before the show. At that point I offered that he could play it on stage for the gig and I was very happy that he wanted to.

I haven't had this mando miked yet because I haven't gigged anywhere in about 5 years... heck... it's rare enough to get to a jam these days. When they started up on stage and he put it into the mic with his first break, I couldn't quit smiling and actually chuckled out loud. It sounded incredible through the mic and sound system. Brandon ended up playing it (other than one fast and furious tune on the Tucker) for the whole show... I was loving it! He's a tremendous picker and a top notch guy... had a great time talking with him thru the evening and was glad to know he's a fellow West Virginian now.

I got some video and pics of Todd and Brandon with the mando and will get some posted in the near future.

I'm not sure if Brandon reads/posts here at all, but if he does, i'll let him post what he thought of it in his own words... I was just happy to hear it get picked at a level that showcased its potential.

I picked the Tucker a little bit backstage... very nice mando and MAN what a scroll those things have carved on them...

[belbein]

Scott: Is the "Mandolin Cafe" sticker registered as a trademark and/or copyrighted? If it is, then you should let E-bay know that this is a trademark/copyright infringement and they'll pull it toot sweet.

If it's NOT ... tsk tsk tsk. Let me know and I can maybe guide you through the process. This site is a valuable "property," as the Entertainment guys say. You shouldn't let it get nibbled at.

[AlanN]

Cool story about that mandolin and the builder Sams. Thought that name sounded familiar and sure enough, I have a recording in the stack of something called Skeletones, In The Dark. Todd Sams was on it (on mando?, or was it John Staats), along with Wyatt Rice and some other cats. Good picking.

[fretbored]

I still have 11 years worth of story on this mandolin to uncover... gonna keep at it! Hehe...

[almeriastrings]

Fascinating. Great story and obviously a very serious quality instrument... you did very well on that deal.

[Bernie Daniel]

Great sting and interesting story. Certainly was a great find and buy. For some reason fretbored I was thinking you lived in Flushing, Ohio or somewhere near there in southeast Ohio. Did you move?

[fretbored]

Very near where you are thinking Bernie... I live in Wheeling, WV. My (outdated) profile may have said Martins Ferry, OH at one point. You are the guy that mentioned Egypt Valley, right?

If so, the Pennyroyal is pretty much out in that neck of the woods right off of I-70. It is a great place to hear bluegrass, and also has a wealth of great people and some good food!

[belbein]

Scott: Is the "Mandolin Cafe" sticker registered as a trademark and/or copyrighted? If it is, then you should let E-bay know that this is a trademark/copyright infringement and they'll pull it toot sweet.

If it's NOT ... tsk tsk tsk. Let me know and I can maybe guide you through the process. This site is a valuable "property," as the Entertainment guys say. You shouldn't let it get nibbled at.

Sorry, wasn't clear. I'm not looking for business--I've got too many instruments on my bench and too many cases on my desk. I meant I could give you some tips on how to protect yourself.

[Travis Wilson]

Interesting story. Have you given any thought to having Mr. Sams restore the head stock to its original specifications?

[fretbored]

Nah... I like it as is! Makes for a better story in my book... although those are the chapters that are in the dark still...

[Willie Poole]

Fretbored....Looking back at some of the photos on "Fake Gibsons" thread: your mandolin looks very much like the one that Danny Clark said he sold...Have you talked to Danny? Maybe he could shed some light on who did the inlays etc. Not that it really matters...I am glad to hear that it found a good home with someone that will cherish it....I too have a "Loar" copy but the labels inside tell who actually made it and it is not intended to decieve anyone although I let people think what they want to think unless they ask questions about it, I don`t play it out in public much any more....

All of this was very interesting to me and I am amazed at how the Loar experts can spot such differences....

Willie

[Bernie Daniel]

Great sting and interesting story. Certainly was a great find and buy. For some reason fretbored I was thinking you lived in Flushing, Ohio or somewhere near there in southeast Ohio. Did you move?

That's me! HNY!

[fretbored]

Willie, talked with Danny several times about it... it was one of the ones where he didn't know who built it.