Getting to the Next Level aka the best laid plans...

[RHBoy]

Hi all,

I've been pondering how to get to the next level of playing. After seeing Sierra Hull at the Centerville, OH Alternative Strings concert (wow!!), I have been inspired to push harder through the barrier to the next level (higher level ) of playing. A little about myself-I've been playing mandolin about 12 years, although I started playing music on guitar 36 years ago. I can and do memorize complex mandolin breaks and perform them in public. I learn mostly by ear, some tab, and putting the time in to learn. I can improvise, playing less complicated breaks, to most bluegrass songs and some Dawg/swing. My rhythm and timing is good, as reported by other musicians. I play music with bands and attend jam sessions regularly. I know some music theory, can read music at a BASIC level, and generally play well with others.

Possible plans-Seeing Alan Bibey, John McGann, and others offering online teaching is possible. Composing an original break, based on licks or a solid plan (I tend to live in the moment when improvising). Tabbing out breaks? I have many books that I've just scratched the surface of-hitting the books? Work harder, type less ? What did you do to get off the plateau? What am I missing here? Sorry so long, Thanks!
Jeff

[samlyman]

How well do you know the mandolin neck? Have you learned where your basic double stops are for common keys all the way up the neck? Can you find melody notes everywhere on the instrument?

In my experience memorizing the work of others is a good place to start but can be very limiting if you do not spend time trying to find your own voice on an instrument. My favorite approach is to listen to lots of different kinds of music in every possible key and force myself to play improvised solos that still honor the basic melody. After spending years on this I can usually pull off a good improvised solo by the end of the second verse. Since I play fiddle as well I also force myself to do the same on that instrument while developing fiddle solos that do not sound like a rehash of what I am doing on the mandolin.

Just my two cents,

Sam

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

If you are looking for some broad tips on improving you improvising, a recent post by John McGann condensed a lot of really good ideas into one place. Look at the 4th post here:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?79946

If you are looking for ways to break out of routine when playing, you have to force yourself to examine what your habits are in relation to where you are going. For example, we might reach for comfortable fingering patterns almost all the time; emphasize chords notes in predictable ways; always guide our solo finishes to the root note; use the same one or two shapes for a given chord; play out of the same chord positions for all solos in certain keys; play endless streams of eighth notes as a break... etc.

There are several ways to break out of these habits. One is to force yourself to be uncomfortable by setting up some challenges. For example, take a song you know in G, but try to play it in F# instead; or improvise a solo, but do not start or end any phrases on the root or fifth note of the chord; similarly, use an alternate scale or mode or fingering over a section; start all phrases on the "and" of a beat; improvise using only 2 fingers; devise some chord-melody arrangements of simple songs to force new chord shapes to be played; try to find new and unfamiliar melodies and patterns on the fretboard by playing sequences you would usually not consider...

My favorite one is to sing a lot (out loud or in your head) when you don't have the instrument, and then try to sing similar lines while you play exactly what you sing. You might find your voice going places your fingers never thought of going.

Another route is to do some analysis of some players that you really enjoy. If you want to add more Monroe flavor to your playing, you might discover that you need a different approach to RH picking, or learn to play out of chord shapes as opposed to scale shapes. If you want to play swing more stylistically, you might find more emphasis on 3, 7, 9, and 13 chord tones rather than roots and fifths, and different ways of incorporating syncopation and phrasing than is used in bluegrass and other styles.

Where do you want to go with your playing? What would specifically be the next level for you?

Cheers
Mark R-T

[Pete Martin]

While lessons can certainly help, I think the best way to learn is transcribe solos from your favorite mandolinists and then practice them until you can play them well. You'll learn everything you need that way.

The answer to all questions is on the recordings!

[RHBoy]

@ Sam-How well do you know the mandolin neck? Have you learned where your basic double stops are for common keys all the way up the neck? Can you find melody notes everywhere on the instrument?--Well, pretty good, but can always improve, on both double stops and neck and yes to melody notes-I love playing the same song in different locations on the neck or transcribing to different keys. Finding my own voice is a challenge and good advice-putting the time in to learn my own breaks-thanks Sam.

@ Mark-YES, great thread on improv-I have printed that out and will be using it as part of my improve the playing strategy. Nice tips also about not emphasis-I love the raw Monroe and the Swing of Jethro and will try to imagine what a break would sound like while being played by one of these men and try to emulate that-open blues scale notes for Monroe stye, more swing, closed notes with triplets for Jethro-As far as where I would like to go-to be able to graft the breaks I learn from many sources (Bush, Grisman, Burns, Monroe, Steffey, Bibey, Burns, the list goes on) mix them up, and use the elements I like in original breaks would be the next level. Improvising at a more complex level. Understanding more about chords, chord substitutions, and Swing. And...a bag of chips

@ Pete-you are so right with the recordings. I do listen a lot. I have never transcribed a solo. That could be the missing link.

Thanks everyone for your help. Your knowledge is a great resource for the aspiring mandolinist, as is this website. Please keep the tips coming and thanks for your help!

[Dfyngravity]

While lessons can certainly help, I think the best way to learn is transcribe solos from your favorite mandolinists and then practice them until you can play them well. You'll learn everything you need that way.

The answer to all questions is on the recordings!

While taking music theory, one thing my teacher told me to do was to transcribe some breaks and put the chords over them and study what was being played over each chord and how each "lick" transitions to the next, from chord to chord. This will help you develop some nice techniques or stylings to use in your own solos.

[August Watters]

I think it's helpful to alternate two different approaches to improvisation: one that focuses on the melody, and another that focuses on harmony. Both are time-honored approaches to learning improvisation. Melodic variation has been well-covered here, but playing from the "changes" can also be helpful. This approach has been popular learning approach in the jazz world, but can be challenging even if you're playing a simple I-IV-V progression.

Niles pointed out in the thread linked above: harmony can lead you to improvising a new "melody." I think this is because the ear can perceive lines suggested by chord changes. For example, play these notes one at a time:

E-F-F-E
G-A-G-G
C-C-B-C

Vertically, these melodic lines outline a C-F-G7-C progression. Internalizing these horizontal lines helps to get the changes in your ear, and into your improvisational language. At my school this idea is called "guide tones" and has been taught for decades as a way of getting inside the chord changes.

Another way of saying this is that harmony suggests melody -- so practicing devices from the chord progression is a way of finding those new melodies for improvisation.

[Galileo]

RHBoy,

I was at the same show and really enjoyed it. While probably not as fully developed in my playing abilites as you are, I have had many of the same qeustions. Appreciate eveyone's input, it's all really good information...off to go put it to practice.

Robert

[Newmexmandoboy]

Not that I'm at 'the next level' but I'm signed up at academyofbluegrass.com and I don't think there is anything mike Marshall could NOT direct you towards. He has accelerated my rate of learning by at least a factor of 5.

[JuddTaylor]

I agree with much said here. Mike's given me good advice in the past, but I've never formally taken lessons from him (internet lessons weren't around back then), and also with learning the map of the neck.

I'm also a fiddle player, and it helps enormously to know the map, and defined positions (ex: 3rd position = 1st finger at the 5th fret). Once you know the scales and double stops in esp 1st & 3rd positions, and a few licks to get between positions, then it supports making a map for your improvised breaks really easy. Once you get to know it well enough, you can plan your break out during the first chorus/verse and be ready to go on the first break with no sweat.

A plan would be something like "start with this like like the vocal line melody, then move down to the d string, and then up to 3rd position to hit that double stop on D&A strings, then ...".

I wouldn't waste your time in tabbing out a break. It's not very fun to play the same thing all the time. The only time to think about that is when you've recorded something memorable on the album that you're touring to support. Short of that, I'd just improvise it and have fun.

[JeffD]

I've been pondering how to get to the next level of playing.

Just as you can describe where you are at present, with the same level of detail describe where you want to be. Its not clear to me, and maybe to you too, except you want to be "better".

I dunno, I always start these things by clearing my mind before I run in 5346347 directions. So kind of paint a picture of perfect, what do you want to be able to do, eventually. Should be very objectively measureable stuff. Because only you know what the next level looks like, and how you will know when you have arrived there.

I want to be able to improvise over any standard chord progression.
I want to be able to lead any of the BG tunes at my jam.
I want to be able to play flawless single note melody.
I want to be able to play "Smashville" at Sierra Hull's speed.
I want to be able to read fiddle tunes from standard musical notation.
I want to be able to sight read.
I want to be able to harmonize from the written music.

What ever it is you want, write it out very specifically.

Perhaps you have some broader objectives:

I want to play in XXX band.
I want to record some traditional bluegrass
I want to write some tunes.
I want to record some original blugrass tunes with the band.


You may still not have a good idea how to proceed, but you will know where you are going. More likley though, I think clearly stating behavioral objectives really helps you figure out what to do next.

["Umm, fish?"]

You know, I was reading something by Martin Taylor recently and his words really struck me. He was basically saying that he believed that the only necessary scale to teach the beginner is the chromatic scale. Right off the bat, that sounds certainly true and completely trite. I mean, those are all the notes, so of course you could just play any of them.

But as it sank in, I started to wonder if there was actually something truly profound in there. So now I'm trying to play with it and decide whether I think he was just throwing something out there or if its really as freeing a concept as I'm slowly starting to think it might be. Breaking out of the straightjacket and safety net of diatonicism, as it were. So, now I'm starting to throw various chromatic notes and chromatic runs into different harmonic contexts just to see how I feel about them. Then, if I'm trying to evoke a tonal color in my improv, I know where I can find it in that harmonic context without regard to the current scale (at least in theory).

At any rate, its giving me lots of new things to practice.

[tomgun]

I've asked the same question many times. The majority of musicians I asked (except two) would tell me about scales, chord substitutions, knowing the neck, etc., as many have done here. I was a music major for a long time and I understood everything they said. It didn't work for me and it took a long time for me to give up trying that method. There were a few duh moments that hit me.

I all of a sudden realized that Ella Fitzgerald did not know what key she was singing in (assuming she didn't have perfect pitch -if she did, pick someone great who didn't). So why should I have to know what key I was playing in? She had her throat (which she couldn't see) and I have the neck. I quit worrying about keys, chords, etc. I just went for the note I wanted. I closed my eyes, lay back in a good chair, and played along with my iPod, starting up the neck where I would not know my note. Or do the same without music. Play. It will get better faster than you think. And what isn't better will be better than you think, too. You'll be surprised.

Which brings me to the second thing. A working musician friend of mine played with a big name and the big name told him "Allow yourself to make mistakes." That's one of the best things I have second handedly heard in my life. It's hard but you'll get better at it.

Another person who sorta made the same point was Victor Wooten. He's one of my favorite cool guys. Find the YouTube where he is giving a seminar and pushes the chromatic scale, as someone here also mentioned. Next to every "bad" note is a good note. Quit being scared of it, play with it, and then move up or down a fret when you're ready.

Before you think I'm completely clueless and ruleless, one of the best things I've done recently is learn a Bach piece note for note. It is a great combination with complete freedom.

Last, which really should be first, I'd suggest not thinking that the next level is higher or better. You're good enough already. It will just be another level. Unless your target audience is musicians, and critical ones at that, after twelve years of playing mandolin you have something worth listening to if you want to play it. You were good enough at least several years ago if not longer ago. You will keep learning, but enjoy being good enough now.

A nuts and bolts idea I use and have suggested to students: in a song, randomly decide to start somewhere high and finish low, start low and finish high, start high and finish higher, start low and finish lower, stay on as few notes as possible in the middle, etc.

Good luck,
Have fun.

[Mike Bunting]

I agree. Also, Grow your EARS!

[Sandy Beckler]

Don't forget to enjoy the ride....