81489 f5

[Joe Spann]

The conversation has strayed away from the "main point and hard question". Mike and Chris's posts are both fully valid and make sense, BUT, The FON number is normaly assigned before they even start carving the pieces. This is how they track the parts and the labor hours associated with it. Any overproduced item would be marked with an FON of the build period.

Not exactly.

Each and every individual mandolin/guitar/banjo part which was used to build an instrument was not marked with a FON. As far as I know, in a completed pre-war Gibson mandolin the FON appears in only one place, either on the interior sidewall, or on the interior of the back.

When a batch of instruments was completed all the material used to build them would have been charged off to the FON in accounting at that time. However, any remaining, extra parts were simply stored. These extra parts were not marked with the FON under which they were originally built. So they clearly appear anonymously in later batches.

Make sense?
Joe

[chris]

That would fit with what I said. So could there be as little as one F-5 With it's own FON?

[f5loar]

I think all the experts agree there is a significant difference between a signed Loar F5 and a later Fern F5 on up to around 1930. If you go by the duck theory, you know walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....etc. then if these unsigned Loars look like a Loar, sound like Loar and only lack the signed label then they are "unsigned Loars" as the term applies. Now to me the custom order (they were are custom ordered for that matter as the F5 was not a stock dealer item) F4 red finish Fern Loar is one odd ball in the mix. But to me it was nothing like other Loar Ferns of this batch date mainly due to the finish while this 81489 does have everything a Fern Loar would have except the Virzi. The red finish Fern Loar 76787 did have the Virzi but also noted it has an unusal thin top. Which to me raises a flag. Thinner top then other Fern Loars around it tell me finish was sanded back down to raw wood and then refinished in the custom order red F4 finish to fill that order. This would also explain they had dozens of near finished F5s not sold on hand on up until 1927. And with the order coming in 1926 it also had the uncommon for '24 gold parts. There still is several missing serial numbers around this red finish Fern batch.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Not exactly.

Each and every individual mandolin/guitar/banjo part which was used to build an instrument was not marked with a FON. As far as I know, in a completed pre-war Gibson mandolin the FON appears in only one place, either on the interior sidewall, or on the interior of the back.

When a batch of instruments was completed all the material used to build them would have been charged off to the FON in accounting at that time. However, any remaining, extra parts were simply stored. These extra parts were not marked with the FON under which they were originally built. So they clearly appear anonymously in later batches.

Make sense?
Joe

I agree to a point or degree. But it is quite apparent that there were overproduced "assemblies" that were marked with an FON (and no serial number). These often layed around for long periods. Case in point, the A suffixed 1925 FON's made from parts produced under the earlier FON they bear. Example: 76274 11093A H4. This is clearly a Loar era H4 made from parts produced under FON 11093 built years before when the corresponding serial number would have started with 4xxxx.

Second case and point. All of the TL's are made from mandola bodies (not the top though) produced years before and are suffixed with an A or simply bear the very old FON No. Example:
76700 11172a TL,
77240 11190a TL4
77259 11177A TL
77260 11177A TL
77282 3247 TL
77290 11177A TL



Additionally, I just took apart A2 mandolin No. 73922 and the head block, the back way down at the tailblock and the top way down at the tailblock are all marked with the same and appropriate FON. I can only assume that the end of the dove tail on the neck may also be marked (however I cannot be sure)

So, either their system changed some here and there over the years or...who knows

BTW, I enjoy a respectful cross-examination session on this stuff

[Joe Spann]

But it is quite apparent that there were overproduced "assemblies" that were marked with an FON (and no serial number).

Additionally, I just took apart A2 mandolin No. 73922 and the head block, the back way down at the tailblock and the top way down at the tailblock are all marked with the same and appropriate FON.

I absolutely agree with you Darryl. Sometimes, entire "assemblies" of parts laid around in the factory for years. We see evidence of this in guitars and banjos as well. Gibson usually slightly over-built when filling an order. This allowed for spoilage. I was told that directly by one of the pre-war employees.

As far as the marking of FONs on more than one part of a pre-war Gibson mandolin......well.....I learned something today! And that's always a good thing. I have a great respect for informed discourse as well. I also believe very few people are better schooled in pre-war Gibson mandolins than Darryl Wolfe.

Joe

[Darryl Wolfe]

I also believe that at least one or more of the following statements are true

1) They were using both the 5 digit and later 4 digit FON sequence concurrently/at the same time for a while (there were two different FON books at the same time) See Exhibit A

2) They may have been erasing old FON numbers (that existed on parts and/or assemblies) for a while when fulfilling a new FON...then applying that FON

3) When they changed their business model during this period, they could not exactly figure out how to properly do what they were doing with respect to FON's This led to the A suffix to indicate an instrument that had not just been built from scratch to fullfil an order

Exhibit A

79224 11999 A
79268 8097 F4
79285 8092 Ajr
79386 8122 A
79439 8153 Ajr
79607 11995 A2Z
79716 8229 A
79791 8229 A
79792 8190 Ajr
79806 8190 Ajr
79835 11985 F5
79841 11142A O
79844 11142A O
79845 11999 A2Z
79860 1198x A2Z
79914 8284 A
80092 11345 K2
80107 8356 H1
80270 8405 Ajr
80286 8405 Ajr
80319 8355 F2
80377 8355 F2
80434 8430 A
80485 8430 A
80515 11963 A2Z
80529 8230 F4
80570 8350 L5
80624 8123 A4
80782 11985 F5
80849 8559 Ajr
80931 8193 Ljr
81108 8614 A
81251 11985 F5
81268 11985 F5
81273 8657 L5
81290 11985 F5
81362 8563 F2
81489 8231 F5
81547 8510 A
81564 8123 A4
81657 8231 F5
81763 8712 Ajr

Now look at Exhibit A

Tell me how a mandolin FON 8097 at the top can bear a serial number that predates all Dec 1, 1924 signed Loars, all "Unsigned Loars" and the serial number of the subject mandolin if the serial number was assigned when they were completed/and/or shipped.

There is something fishy in Dodge City and this is my point.

[Joe Spann]

That would fit with what I said. So could there be as little as one F-5 With it's own FON?

Yes Chris, that is correct. In fact, I've seen many "one-off" or "custom" pre-war Gibson instruments which are the only instruments in their batch.

Joe

[Joe Spann]

This would also explain they had dozens of near finished F5s not sold on hand on up until 1927.

I strongly agree with this statement.

Joe

[Joe Spann]

1) The were using both the 5 digit and later 4 digit FON sequence concurrently/at the same time for a while (there were two different FON books at the same time)

2) The may have been erasing old FON numbers (that existed on parts and/or assemblies) for a while when fulfilling a new FON...then applying that FON

I will respectfully point out that a third alternative also exists. Gibson massively overbuilt mandolin family instruments in the period followed World War I. The popularity of the mandolin had faded. This resulted in a large backstock of nearly completed or completed mandolin family instruments which sat around for many years. As orders were received Gibson's employees gradually depleted this backstock.....and applied the paper serial number labels at the time of shipping.

I also could easily believe choice #2.

Joe

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Joe, I was composing and editing several times on my last post while you posted

[Darryl Wolfe]

JOE SPANN _ "I will respectfully point out that a third alternative also exists. Gibson massively overbuilt mandolin family instruments in the period followed World War I. The popularity of the mandolin had faded. This resulted in a large backstock of nearly completed or completed mandolin family instruments which sat around for many years. As orders were received Gibson's employees gradually depleted this backstock.....and applied the paper serial number labels at the time of shipping."

I also could easily believe choice #2.




I agree again

[Darryl Wolfe]

This stuff reminds me of "The X Files"

[Christian]

This stuff reminds me of "The X Files"

Darryl, Joe, this is great, fascinating stuff, please keep it coming!

[chris]

Darryl, Do you think they stamped the FON through the F hole after the F-5 was completed or before the back went on?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Darryl, Do you think they stamped the FON through the F hole after the F-5 was completed or before the back went on?

I had always presumed the parts were stamped as they were made, as a method of directing X number of rim sets, backs and top, and neck to a point of final assembly. But maybe they were only penciled on and in the end the complete intrument received a stamp. I no longer feel sure about many things I have held with reasonable certainty now.

One could say an FON on the headblock is a certain indicator that the FON was applied to the rim set before top and back was installed. However, it is possible they were done after the instrument was completed

[Bill Halsey]

I think FON stamping post-assembly would be unlikely. Here are a few neck block stamps from various Styles A & F:



It would be quit difficult to achieve that kind of consistency, esp. off-center, horsing around thru a soundhole
with one of these . . .


And it certainly would not fit thru an f-hole.

[Bill Halsey]

FWIW, the FON stamp bears some similarity to the older Lyre label s/n stamp . . .

[Darryl Wolfe]

FWIW, the FON stamp bears some similarity to the older Lyre label s/n stamp . . .

Certainly does. I'm with you, unlikely applied after assembly. Sometime around 1922 or so, the started using the stamp for "MANDOLIN" also and "A2 and such"

[danb]

Nice FON photos. Tangeant, but this is the oldest style (from SN 4870)

[Joe Spann]

Dan,

I think it's so cool that the earliest FON stampings actually said "Order No."

Joe

[Bill Halsey]

Never saw one of those -- terrific!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Great stuff Dan

[Ken Waltham]

Dan; I have never seen anything like that before either!

[danb]

Hard to photograph. I tried and couldn't get shots of another just last weekend!

Seems that's the style in use until around serial 6500 ish.. I'll dig a bit more and see if I have one

[danb]

Same instrument/FON, slightly different photo. This is f2 4870

5544 has it.. 3263 did too. Wish I'd managed to snap a few more shots