Play slow until you know or let it fly?

[greg_tsam]

The great thing about this forum is the range of talent and experience of the members. I learn so much from everyone and don't consider myself to be better than anyone. Iif you here me play you'll know that's true. haha) I'm not really asking whether I should do one or the other but just to discuss the different times you might have to do one or the other. There are tons of threads and posts that will say

1. Play slow.
2. Play clean.
3. Increase your speed when you can do #1 & #2.
4. Play the melody then improvise around it.

And I agree with all of it. When you are able to sit down and woodshed your tunes, gt them up to speed then go out and play with others who play at your tempo then that is a perfect world. Of course it's not a perfect world and that quickly goes out the window whenever you go to a jam. Then it becomes something completely different. Something I learned very early in life and it never changes.

Trial by fire. Grip it and rip it.

At first I watched from the sidelines, got bored watching and joined in playing chords, learned and played fiddle tunes, progressed to attempting breaks using arpeggios and pentatonic scale bashing until now where I've reached a point where I can play at speed and improvise a lead even if I don't know the song w/o resorting to penatonic bashing while playing with an acceptable level of clarity, high volume and speed.

It didn't happen overnight and I've put in countless hours of practice, wood shedding, jamming, gigs, rehearsals and actively listening. And I'm just now getting to where I can hold my own and contribute.

A serious student of music is how I might classify myself. If I stayed in my house, perfecting each song until I felt it was perfect and up to speed I would have never gotten to this point so there is always a need to just get out there and let it all hang out. The trick is knowing when and where. That's what experience is for.

What's your take?

[Mandolincelli]

A serious student of music is how I might classify myself. If I stayed in my house, perfecting each song until I felt it was perfect and up to speed I would have never gotten to this point so there is always a need to just get out there and let it all hang out. The trick is knowing when and where. That's what experience is for.

What's your take?[/QUOTE]

I'm right there with you. I am a very serious student of mandolin and yet always feel like my capabilities lag the amount of time I've put into learning. But as you say, I can woodshed till the cow come home and still never be prepared for what shows up at the jam. Bottom line (in all things in life): find a balanced middle way. Thanks for the post.

Ken

[OldSausage]

Sure. If you never play fast, you will never play fast.

[Pete Martin]

However if you always play fast out of control, you will never have a good sound. It's a balance of both.

[sgarrity]

Success is located outside of your comfort zone.

[greg_tsam]

I've spent the last 1.5 years playing too fast for my comfort zone and going home and refining my technique. It sucks to keep passing in a circle just b/c I'm not up to their speed. I can't ask them to slow down too many times, if at all, before their eyes glaze over. I'm very glad to say all the homework is paying off and now the fast playing is becoming more refined and polished.

On the flip side, I was at a new circle and was asked to play a tune so I asked how fast and did some "potatoes" to confirm. Everyone said great and off we went. The very next guy tried and failed and he STOPPED and told me that was too fast. I grinned and complied with the request but the scowl on his face made that the last time I went there. Funny thing is it was barely over a waltz pace. That was an extremely slow circle and that guy was cranky.

[greg_tsam]

However if you always play fast out of control, you will never have a good sound. It's a balance of both.

Good point but you gotta get out there and dance even if you're clumsy, have two left feet and step on a few toes.

[JLewis]

Your experience at last week's jam can be the driving force for what you do in the woodshed this week.

[mommythrice]

I'm still pentatonic bashing, but at least I can do it in several different positions.

[doc holiday]

There is a very big difference between practice (or woodshedding) & performing & jamming. The best teachers I've had on mandolin or guitar.... John Moore, Scott Nygaard, Robert Bowlin....all say that if you can't play it clean slowly....you can't play it clean & fast. All practice is not the same. Are you learning a tune, practicing scales, or trying to build speed?.....all require different kinds of practice...
Yeah...I know...the road is loooong...

[yankees1]

However if you always play fast out of control, you will never have a good sound. It's a balance of both.

Absolutely! I have been practicing two songs too fast and having a bit of trouble so I had to slow both songs down and start over ( Morpeth Rant and St Annes Reel)

[mommythrice]

Absolutely! I have been practicing two songs too fast and having a bit of trouble so I had to slow both songs down and start over ( Morpeth Rant and St Annes Reel)

I play different versions of fiddle tunes depending on the speed. I finally realized that I don't need ALL the notes when I play at break-neck speed. Sometimes I can do this on the fly, but sometimes I have to sit down a work something out with fewer notes that still sounds good. Usually, its only one or two little notes that are causing the problem. Listen to Bill Monroe play fiddle tunes - he's not playing everything the fiddle plays.

[yankees1]

I play different versions of fiddle tunes depending on the speed. I finally realized that I don't need ALL the notes when I play at break-neck speed. Sometimes I can do this on the fly, but sometimes I have to sit down a work something out with fewer notes that still sounds good. Usually, its only one or two little notes that are causing the problem. Listen to Bill Monroe play fiddle tunes - he's not playing everything the fiddle plays.

I understand what you mean as a fiddle player I was playing with played Morpeth Rant with about one fourth less notes than I was playing and her version sounded very good.

[chriss]

I play different versions of fiddle tunes depending on the speed. I finally realized that I don't need ALL the notes when I play at break-neck speed. Sometimes I can do this on the fly, but sometimes I have to sit down a work something out with fewer notes that still sounds good. Usually, its only one or two little notes that are causing the problem.

+1 to this --- exactly what I find

[chriss]

Your experience at last week's jam can be the driving force for what you do in the woodshed this week.

and +1 to this too.
Sorry to put up 2 posts. I couldn't work out how to "+1" to 2 posts in 1. ???

[JeffD]

Its not a time line.

To be a complete musician you need to practice tunes slow and clean till you get them and you need to jam regularly with other people.

Woodshedding doesn't take away the need to play regularly, and playing regularly doesn't take away the need to practice.

I myself don't see a point to playing anything faster than I can play it clean. Even in a jam, if the tune is too fast I will play something close to the tune that I can manage, or play chords, or sit it out. (If you play every tune you don't ever get to drink.)

But speed does increase naturally as you work at it.

After you can play a tune cleanly, look for ways to play it faster - less finger motion, keep fingers down, place unused fingers cleverly where they will be needed a few notes from now, use a different position for some of the notes, to make the transisions faster, etc. Find ways to minimize finger movement and smooth things out. Practice the tune that way. Try to get in the habit of leaving fingers down as you go up the scale so that they are there if and when you go down. Things like that.

[greg_tsam]

and +1 to this too.
Sorry to put up 2 posts. I couldn't work out how to "+1" to 2 posts in 1. ???

You multi quote. The "``+" button on the bottom right. Click each post you want to multi then press the reply with quote button. Presto!

[greg_tsam]

Yep, I've got 9 years into the mando and about 6 years on guitar before that so I've been through the process. Pick it clean, pick it fast, slow down and clean it up, keep my fingers down, woodshedding, practice, jamming, gigging, rehearsal, economy of motion, studying theory, watching videos, reading books, jamming to mp3's and videos slow and fast, waltz and rawhide speeds, producing good tone, playing sloppy, drinking beer between songs and sitting some out to drink more and buying one for the bass player and wine for the banjo player. haha... That last one is evil but fun and I do sit next to him.

I've done my homework and put in my time but still have a lifetime to go. It's not a competition but a process. Layers of an onion peel back to reveal yet another later. I love every minute of it.

Guess my point was to start a conversation about everyone's experience with the same thing not asking for advice on what to do. Guess the title was confusing. I was attempting to be insightful.

[JonZ]

Too Fast
Moderate
Slowly

"The Pyramid of Practice Speed".

[greg_tsam]

Well,dang it all. JonZ you edited your post and now my reply sounded from outer space. lol.. Guess I should have quoted you. Instead I'm curious about your "Pyramid of Practice Speed". I've never heard of it but definitely been there before. Is that yours?

[Bertram Henze]

Sure. If you never play fast, you will never play fast.

Success is located outside of your comfort zone.

+1 to both. Wisdom is out in force today

[Jimdalf]

I found this violinist podcast by Rachel Barton Pine quite handy. It is her practising advice, she talks a bit about how to divide the learning into separate parts.

I've recently been practising by recording myself playing the chords first and then using that to keep time, turns out I play alot slower than I thought though! because I record the chords far to fast every time and have to re-do them, it has helped me nudge up my speed by getting those chords just to where I am struggling on the uncomfortable bits of the melody though.

[Ivan Kelsall]

I learn every tune/song that i play 'up to tempo'. I play it as cleanly as i can & if i fluff a few notes,i work on it until i don't. IMHO,if you start off slow,that's fine,but you still have the 'speed barrier' to break,& even if you can pick the tune cleanly at a slow tempo,you could still louse up when you come to pick it faster - so why not get it all done at the same time ?. It still takes practice but at least you're practicing 'both' your picking accuracy & speed,
Ivan

[chriss]

The "``+" button on the bottom right. Presto!

muchas gracias Greg,

[chriss]

I found this violinist podcast by Rachel Barton Pine quite handy. It is her practising advice, she talks a bit about how to divide the learning into separate parts.

That really IS very good. It's clearly from the perspective of a worldclass classical concert violinist, but there's a whole lot of really sound thinking in there that'll help develop a really solid foundation of how to make best use of practice time, and develop really strong basic musicianship, musicality.

I've recently been practising by recording myself playing the chords first and then using that to keep time, turns out I play alot slower than I thought though! because I record the chords far to fast every time and have to re-do them, it has helped me nudge up my speed by getting those chords just to where I am struggling on the uncomfortable bits of the melody though.

I've used ABC music to do this - I use ABCExplorer altho there are many ABC music editors/players out there. I can set the chords and a drum or metronome track on it, and have it play the melody line loud or very soft, and then set the tempo slow, fast, back + forth, while I work it out.