Tower style PA (Fishman/Bose) Vs. Combo Amp (Fishman Loudbox Art)

[Phil1580]

Hello Cafe. I am wondering what the consensus would be between the two of these. I am a singer/songwriter, primarily guitar but also recently mando and OM. Most likely it would be for solo gigs (singing/playing); at most it would be for the awesome acoustic rock/folk band that lives in my brain. Money is an issue for me, which is why I've looked at the Loudbox Artist for half the price of the SA220 or the Bose. All of them seem to garner praise here. And do either need a preamp? I have a brand new Baggs Para DI, and also a Fishman preamp that came along with my OM from eBay. Thanks for the input.

[Tim2723]

Hi Phil,

As for the Bose towers, it's important to compare the right one to the Fishman. The Bose Compact model ($1000) is the rough equivalent of the SoloAmp (also $1000). A lot of folks get confused between the Compact and its big brothers, the Model I and II, which are three times more powerful and much more expensive. The Compact and SoloAmp are both in the 200-250 watt power class and can handle similar rooms and crowd sizes. The solo singer/songwriter in small to medium venues represents the optimal user for either system. It's folks who try to use them beyond their design limits that get into trouble.

Despite being a confirmed Bose fan, if money is an issue you'll be able to buy a lot more with a LoudBox or conventional PA gear. But it depends a lot on where you'll play, not what you're playing. A Bose Compact can handle a crowd of 100 in a restaurant venue at moderate volumes. It's NOT a rocker's shake-the-walls amp for dance clubs, no more than any other 250 watt PA is. The main selling point of these new systems are compactness and transportablity. They take up less than half the space of a conventional PA of the same potential, are lightning fast to set up, light to carry, and fit in the smallest cars. But those are costly conveniences. BUT, if you can afford it, they are major pluses for the working musician. I have to set up and tear down a PA as often as ten times a week, so it means a lot to me.

The preamp is usually a function of your instrument's pickup system, not the amplifier. If you need a preamp to make it work with your existing sound system, you'll most likely need it for the others as well.

BTW, Taylors and Ovations are exactly what go through our Bose systems (we have both sizes for different rooms), and they work beautifully with those instruments. The Bose Compact is especially well suited for that instrument combination.

[almeriastrings]

Pretty much to endorse what Tim says, above. We actually use two SA220's and have no problems at all in typical venues with audiences up to 300-400 people. This is with acoustic guitar, mandolin, plus fiddle and other things on occasions. For smaller gigs, in tight spaces, we find one unit more than adequate. I would not recommend them for a rock outfit - but for very clean and accurate sounding acoustic music at respectable (not overpowering) levels, they are very good indeed. The SA220's have a pair of 1/4" jack sockets on the front that works well with both passive and active (they have a -10db pad) pickups. You can certainly use external preamps if you wish. The Para DI in particular does offer some very good EQ possibilities, and we use a Fishman Aura Spectrum on our Martin OM-42. The XLR's have +48v phantom available so are fine with dynamic and condenser mics. If you need more inputs, no problem, you can feed a mixer into the rear 'AUX IN' socket. They are very portable, and fast to set up and break down. This is a good feature, especially at the end of a long night.... for us, the really big 'plus' is that we pretty much hear exactly what the audience does and do not need a separate monitor chain. This is again very useful if you are doing your own sound. We do also use a much larger system for really big gigs, but 90% of the time we just throw the SA220's in there and are very happy with the result. We get a lot of compliments on how good the sound is from guest musicians, too. Several have gone away saying they intend to buy one for themselves.

[Tim2723]

I am also considering a second Bose Compact to mimic Almeria's Fishman set up closely, in addition to using the larger Bose tower for large rooms and outdoor shows (easily heard over a block away with crystal clarity!). There are times when a single Bose Compact is too small while the big Model II is overkill. It would be nice to have additional flexibility.

The SA220 does have greater connectivity, but that isn't a problem for me since I simply plug a six-channel Soundcraft mixer in the line input. So actually I wouldn't use the SoloAmp's additional inputs with my set up as the mixer meets my particular needs, but it's something to consider carefully for your own needs. Both systems have their advantages, just choose the one for you. But you asked about a consensus between the two systems, and it largely comes down to connectivity and your needs in that regard. They are both perfectly suited for their intended applications.

Hearing yourself as the audience hears you is a real big point for us too. What you hear from three feet away is exactly what your audience hears from 100 yards. You DO have less control over feedback than a conventional monitor-based system, but once you learn how to work it and are using it as intended you don't need to do that anyway since they don't feedback if you use them right.

We also use a massively larger system for some applications, but nothing that could fit in the trunk of a car. It's used at the State Fair playing to over a thousand people outdoors. (It arrives in two forty foot tractor trailers and is operated by five technicians. We don't own that one.) But like Almeriastrings we get about 90% use out of our Bose Compact.

While I share Almeriastring's enthusiasm for this technology, I personally always add the caveat that:
For any application within their intended use and within their power class, I will never go back to conventional sound systems.

[Tim2723]

Oh duh!!! You didn't ask about the virtues of the Fishman versus the Bose towers, but between tower systems and a LoudBox (basically, the single-cabinet PA called an acoustic amp)!! Sorry, we both missed it and went off in the wrong direction.

An acoustic amp is fundamentally a single-cabinet, self-contained PA. They are very popular for solo performers (especially guitar playing singers). But in essence, so are the towers. It's all about transporting and compactnes, price and coverage. Acoustic amps are cheaper than towers, and can have more features for the dollar, but towers have other advantages.

There are a LOT of variations on the acoustic amp available today. You can pick from a vast variety of sizes, power classes, and an enormous number of features. But here's the thing:

They need to be picked up off the floor to work their best. That's no big deal. Many have internal sockets that will fit a standard tripod mount, others can be lifted with a simple amp stand. But they don't always translate well to group use or larger venues the way tower systems and conventional PAs do. You can plug a mixer into them, but that's not their real purpose. If you have any intention of expanding into a larger group, a conventional PA will give you WAY more options for the future, IMHO.

[Mark Seale]

Along these same lines has anyone had an opportunity to try out the AAD?

http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=127

[Mark Seale]

In tower vs. combo amp, the key is the projection of sound. The towers do a better job of getting the full range of sound projected into a room. My fiancee typically uses a Bose Model 1 and it is fantastic. Last week she ran through a Roland combo amp that was very good but the sound quality out in the room wasn't the same by far. If it were up on a tripod it may have been better, but on the floor I think there is some reflection that muddies the lower registers.

[Tim2723]

Yeah, they need to get up high like a PA speaker. The AAD appears to be fairly new, so it may take a while to hear about it. From what I read it seems to be a variation on the Fishman's powered, tripod-mounted, column speaker configuration.

[almeriastrings]

Along these same lines has anyone had an opportunity to try out the AAD?

http://www.philjonespuresound.com/products/?id=127

No - but US street price is around $1,700..... and I note it appears not to include a HF driver? Phil Jones stuff is generally nice enough - but tend to be hard to find and carry a very hefty price tag.

[Tim2723]

I'm not too familiar with Phil Jones, but from what I've read his products receive praise. For that kind of money I'd want to see a LOT of advantages over the existing SA220. For a few more dollars you could have a matched pair of Fishman or Bose towers that would do a lot of work.

[pjlama]

I love my Fishman, sounds great ease of use and can handle a decent sized room, it the sa220. If I need more input I have small mixer, if I need more hit I run a line out to an old Eon 15. PA made easy, done and done.

[almeriastrings]

That's right. We've mentioned in the inputs, but the SA220's also have a very versatile set of outputs on the rear panel. There are balanced XLR outs for each channel (pre-FX) plus a main mix out. You can run these to a desk, or the main mix into a second powered speaker or supplementary PA. There is also a very useful 'monitor' send and receive, both on balanced XLR's, that directly interface with a second tower. This allows you to create a 'more me' mix in 'your' tower, or a nicely balanced mix between two towers. Other I/O includes a stereo (LR) line level input on a TRS jack socket (ideal for use with a separate small mixer), a FX loop for each channel (so you can use additional reverbs, EQ's, compressors, etc.), and even a tuner output. It makes for a very expandable little rig.

The OP asked about the Loudbox Artist. That is a very nice acoustic amp. However, for use as a PA it has some limitations. There is only one 8" LF driver (plus tweeter, of course), and it is just over half the rated power of the SA220. The preamp electronics are very similar, and the Artist has a few more FX built in. I would hesitate to rely on a single 8" LF driver in a PA situation... a pair of 10" or 12" drivers, rarely a problem, but one 8" unit..... really pushing it in my opinion in that application. I'm sure as an acoustic guitar/mando amp it is fine, however. The particular (ultra long-throw) design and arrangement of the LF drivers in the Fishman and Bose towers allow for good handling of lower frequencies, and they have a very wide dispersion. Much more so than the single 'point source' effect you get even if you elevate a regular acoustic amp. It is worth trying this for yourself, side-by-side if possible in a real situation. The difference is really very obvious.

[Tim2723]

To endorse in turn what Almeriastrings has said about small acoustic amps, they have been pretty much supplanted by new compact PA gear. While originally offered as a convenient way for the solo guitarist/songwriter in small venues to be heard, things like small powered PA speakers, compact 'suitcase' PAs, and the new tower systems have taken over much of that role with great effect. While acoustic amps are still popular today they tend to serve other purposes, particularly as tone-shaping devices fed into a larger PA or as personal stage monitors in loud environments.