Advice sought

[Scottish Gas]

Hi folks,

New to the forum & relatively new to the mandolin having bought an Ozark 2077 a couple of years ago. Playing mainly my local folk club & the odd session night but also learning (slowly) a few bluegrass tunes. I am considering upgrading as whilst the instrument I have is ok it seems to need a retune after just a short while & it doesn't always sound great (especially further up the fretboard but that may just be my poor technique!)

I am looking to spend a wee bit of money (say upto £500) so not in the league of Gibsons or the top end custom makers. Beying a naturalised Scot - OK a tight arsed Englishman living north of the border - I am not averse to buying second hand but without having played loads of different Mandolins I don't know what to look out for. That's where I thought you guys & gals might be able to help - what would you be buying with £3-500?

All advice gratefully recieved

Thanks

Johnny

[almeriastrings]

Kentucky KM-505.

A lot of mandolin for the money. Nicely made. Properly setup, they play and sound great. Hard to beat in that price range.

[abuteague]

You have a working mandolin in hand. Take it to the shop for a proper setup. Perhaps the bridge placement is off. New strings. Enjoy it. Whenever you have an opportunity to go to a city, look for a shop to try mandolin's out. You know better than anyone what you want in a mandolin. Someone else's idea of what you want may miss the mark. Yes there are some brands that you might keep an eye out for and some to avoid. Having a mandolin in hand to try yourself is the way to go to make sure you are taking a step forward.

[Tim2723]

Hello Johnny and welcome!

If you combine those last two posts you'll have most of the basic mandolin buyer's mantra:

All mandolins (including the one you have) need to be set up properly
There are several popular makes of starter mandolins, with Kentucky being a perennial favorite
The A style mandolin is recommended over the F style in that price range for quality and value
Look for as much solid wood as possible in an instrument
Good second-hand instruments are frequently surprising bargains
All instruments are individual, and there's no substitute for playing them first
Only you can decide which is best
If at all possible, purchase from a dealer familiar with mandolins

From your description, it sounds like your mandolin is out of adjustment and needs to be set up (the high notes sounding off) and the strings need replacing (going out of tune quickly or being difficult to tune).

There's lots of information here about making most of the simpler adjustments yourself, and of course, tons about selecting and changing strings.

To be quite honest, a budget of £300-500, if that includes the set up costs, won't move you light years ahead of what you're playing now. Better, certainly, but not a stunning improvement. Better to invest in getting your mandolin up to snuff. That will yield a marked improvement at minimal cost.

[almeriastrings]

The Ozark 2077 is a very low end, all-laminate, acoustic-electric. The hardware is poor and the tops are not very stable, given to sinking over time, especially if you try to use anything other than light-gauge strings. Hence, I would not invest too much more into one of those. Probably worth setting up yourself, but not if it is going to cost much. These are not exactly a great sounding instrument and you will undoubtedly find any decent, all-solid mandolin a considerable improvement. Forum member Rob has a good, basic, free ebook on basic mandolin setup that would be well worth a read.

[chriss]

... a proper setup. Perhaps the bridge placement is off. New strings ...

+1 to that.

Purely in terms of value-for-money, setup + strings is almost always the highest return in "sound per pound" or "enjoyment per pound." Many more times than not, even the most modest and humble of instruments come out sounding very noticably better, and play "way above their pay grade" -- in both playability and sound. Perhaps better said, "especially the most modest instruments" ...

If you haven't had this done to your current instrument ever, or in the last year or 2, the odds are very good that you'll feel and hear a really significant improvement for a silly-small outlay of dosh.

But on the other hand, if you're resolved to commit to an upgrade ... aka MAS victim ... aka just ready to make the plunge for a new axe ... fair 'nuf, you earned it + you get decide how you spend it; go for it and enjoy!

[Fretbear]

Call up Trevor down in Brighton and talk to him about what you want and can afford;
He could likely help you out and even overnight something suitable (and set-up) to you if he has it.

http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/

[Tim2723]

...I would not invest too much more into one of those. Probably worth setting up yourself, but not if it is going to cost much.

Agreed. When I said 'invest' I meant time and effort, not money. Certainly don't spend your budget upgrading the instrument, get a new one. Sorry for the shoddy wording.

[Johnny60]

Kentucky 505 or an Eastman 505. Both really good solid wood, hand-carved models. Both have radiused ebony fretboards and ebony bridges. Both can be had new for under £500. Hobgoblin sell the Kentucky 505's for £459 and The Acoustic Music Company in Brighton do the Eastman 505 for £499. The Eastman's come with a fitted case, which is an added bonus.

I personally have the Eastman, but both are really good for the price.

And yes, a proper set-up is vital to get the most out of your instrument. A good set-up will help with intonation, tuning stability in general, playability and tone. Plus, a well set-up instrument is a joy to play (rather than a pain in the arse) and so you'll play more and progress faster.

[Shelagh Moore]

Your price range would probably also get you a nice second hand Fylde or another UK luthier-made mandolin like a Buchanan, Dixon, Hathway or similar all of which would be a definite step-up from what you are currently playing.

[Zeke Chandler]

Forum member Rob has a good, basic, free ebook on basic mandolin setup that would be well worth a read.

Link please?

[almeriastrings]

From one of Rob's previous posts.

"Email me (please don't PM me) at rob.meldrum@gmail.com and I'll send you my ebook on how to set up a mandolin (free to all mandolincafe members). There is a detailed section on how to use inexpensive (under ten dollars for a full set) automotive feeler gauges (used to measure spark plug gaps) to determine whether your set up is optimal or needs adjusting. You then have what you need to know to either do the set up yourself (using the ebook) or take it to a luthier/set up specialist"

[Ivan Kelsall]

Almeirastrings nailed it,a Kentucky KM-505. I played one several months ago in my local Hobgoblin music shop & it played & sounded excellent. £459 UK will get you a mandolin that'll be good for years to come,
Ivan

[Dagger Gordon]

Hobgoblin have a number of shops in England that sell pretty good mandolins in your price range. I've only been to their London place, but it seemed to me that their Kentucky mandolins were well set up and from what I saw were worth buying.

I assume that as you are English you will occasionally go down to England. When you do, I suggest you make time for a visit to one of their shops.

[Zeke Chandler]

From one of Rob's previous posts.

"Email me (please don't PM me) at rob.meldrum@gmail.com and I'll send you my ebook on how to set up a mandolin (free to all mandolincafe members). There is a detailed section on how to use inexpensive (under ten dollars for a full set) automotive feeler gauges (used to measure spark plug gaps) to determine whether your set up is optimal or needs adjusting. You then have what you need to know to either do the set up yourself (using the ebook) or take it to a luthier/set up specialist"

Thanks.

[Scottish Gas]

Thanks for all your advice & I have endeavoured to try a few "better quality" mandos in shops close to me &further away.

First impressions are that, as many of you stated £500, doesn't get me much further along the road than I am already. Actually I have been disappointed in a few of the mandos I have tried in terms of the sound & finish - mainly the Eastman/Kentuckys tbh.

I have been very impressed with some of the hand made instruments I have tried these include Moon, Breedlove but especially Fylde. TBH I was all geared to order up a fylde or start looking inthe 2nd hand market until I found myself in Hobgoblin at the weekend.

Here, I was lucky enough to have a go on a 1919 refurbished (relacquered only I think) A style Gibson which literally sang in my hands.

http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/shbig...de=31MASFCSIDD

It looks & sounds beautiful & is advertised at (gulp) £1800. Now I have a few questions I'd love to know the answer to;

1. Is this worth it - seriously, how often do these come up for sale & its the first vintage gibson I've played - but the truth is I have fallen in love - am I better to hold on & get a better feel for this market?

2. How might the refurbishment affect the price & its possible resale value.

3. I didn't see a truss rod on the neck & I have read that the necks were made of "unwarpable" mahogany. Is this the case/does it matter?

4. Does anyone want to buy a kidney?

Thanks for all viewpoints on this. If I had the money I would be posting a picture of my new instrument here as it it is I'm still "swithering".

[Michael Richmond]

Looks like that A3 has been taken all the way back to bare wood and then re-finished. The pick-guard also looks non-original but the pick-guard hardware might be original. Paddlehead Gibson A models from the 191x and 192x years are quite easy to find in the USA at around the US$1500 mark in original condition. But in Europe and the UK these seem to be harder to find and at a markedly higher asking price.

Extreme refinishing such as that performed on the linked mandolin dramatically decreases the value of the instrument for most buyers. But, as with any mandolin purchase it's not about the make, model, or specifications of the instrument. It's about whether the instrument speaks to you.

To get an idea of the rarity/range of prices check a large US-based dealer such as www.elderly.com. For the kinds of prices I've seen asked for vintage Gibsons in Europe it may be cheaper to have a quick trip to the US to spend some quality time at a store that keeps a good stock of instruments.

[Scottish Gas]

Looks like that A3 has been taken all the way back to bare wood and then re-finished. The pick-guard also looks non-original but the pick-guard hardware might be original. Paddlehead Gibson A models from the 191x and 192x years are quite easy to find in the USA at around the US$1500 mark in original condition. But in Europe and the UK these seem to be harder to find and at a markedly higher asking price.

Extreme refinishing such as that performed on the linked mandolin dramatically decreases the value of the instrument for most buyers. But, as with any mandolin purchase it's not about the make, model, or specifications of the instrument. It's about whether the instrument speaks to you.

To get an idea of the rarity/range of prices check a large US-based dealer such as www.elderly.com. For the kinds of prices I've seen asked for vintage Gibsons in Europe it may be cheaper to have a quick trip to the US to spend some quality time at a store that keeps a good stock of instruments.

Hey Michael, thanks for getting back to me. I have spoken to Hobgoblin who assure the refinish was done at the gibson factory!. Dunno if this makes any difference!

[Chip Booth]

That is too much money for that A3, which would normally cost (in the US) about that in good condition. Refinished like that makes it worth about half that amount in my opinion. Now that's just money I am talking about, what it is worth to YOU could be completely different.

Have you tried any other vintage Gibson oval hole instruments? They vary from each other but generally have a similar kind of sound. If it is this general sound you like you should be able to find a vintage Gibson for a lot less, perhaps a bit more beat up and not as high a series such as a plane A style or Ajr, but the tone can be great in any series, a higher price point usually refers more to aesthetics than sound quality when it comes to these old Gibsons. I see that Trevor has an old Gibson A or two in stock at lower prices.

You mentioned you play some sessions and some bluegrass. These old Gibsons seem to be well considered for session playing but aren't as desirable for bluegrass. As a general rule oval hole instruments don't have as direct or cutting a sound as F hole instruments. That can make them seem "quieter" or the way I would put it is they don't particularly stand out in a mix of instruments. The warm, round tone can really suck in players though, especially when you play by yourself or maybe with one other instrument. I think a lot of people (myself included) have decided we prefer an oval hole sound better at first only to discover it didn't work out so well in a band context and then find ourselves switching to F hole instruments. I still own a nice sounding Gibson Ajr oval hole mandolin but it is more of a novelty. For the type of music I play (folk, country, light jazz, fiddle tunes, etc.) and since I play almost always in ensembles of various size, I much prefer the sound of my F hole mandolin.