Out-of-tune & Sloppy Recordings?

[sarai]

WHy does so much bluegrass - especially the old classic stuff sound out of tune? I almost can't tolerate that. I think that's why I'm drawn to "newgrass". Cleaner playing, and usually precise and in tune.

Now I have been trying to familiarize myself with classics. I downloaded "Red Haired Boy", a version by the "The Ball Sisters Band" and I don't know much about this group but the fiddle was so flat and the guitar picking sounded sloppy (ha like something I play coz I'm not that good)...

And it occurred to me that a lot of the older stuff sounds sloppy and out of tune.

How much of this is stylistic and desired in bluegrass? Me, I prefer the groups who play cleanly.

[MikeEdgerton]

Let's take a trip back in time before there were electronic tuners. Ever listen to the "modern" group Poco? Ever tried to play along with any of their records? People used to tune to each other.

As for the fiddle, I'm always amazed at how good a fiddle can sound live and then when I listen to the recording of the same show how often they are flat or sharp. Never noticed it in person, always pick it up in the recording. Seems to be the nature of the beast. Some fiddle players are right on some aren't. No frets.

As for the old stuff, it isn't always perfect but then again they didn't get to do 30 takes on each song. Keep in mind all of those newgrass guys learned it from the oldgrass guys. If you need superclean perfection don't go to any live shows.

[Jim Garber]

I don't know about bluegrass, but i do believe that there is a difference in intonation in some other folk forms. Certainly blues is very different and prob sound out of tune to a classically trained person. I do recall Matt Glaser commenting may years ago that he listened to some old time fiddlers and realized that there was a different scale from std classical music played on the violin. Some notes in the scale would be slightly flat or sharp but there would be some consistency to that. They may have just heard that differently.

[Steve Lavelle]

Some out of tune recordings may be an artifact of the technology. It was not unusual during the tape era to change the speed of the tape, and that changes the tuning. Speeding it up so the tuning changed by more than a half step is obvious (the chipmunks)
but there was a time when radio stations wouldn't play songs over 3 minutes and the recording was adjusted to accommodate that if the band played for a little more than that.

[AlanN]

I don't think many of the early, classic bands tolerated out of tune instruments. They were the pros of the day. Sure, some was rough and grainy, but that was then, this is now. Different era.

[sarai]

Let's take a trip back in time before there were electronic tuners.

Ha that thought did run through my mind that we all use these electronics to tune.

Keep in mind all of those newgrass guys learned it from the oldgrass guys.

Yes - humbled by this, and I do try to learn from these, but it doesn't mean that these are the recordings I have a preference to listen to for pleasure. But I study them as homework I suppose.

If you need superclean perfection don't go to any live shows.

Don't know why but for some reason it doesn't bother me as much live, unless it's just horrible. You know what I mean.

It was not unusual during the tape era to change the speed of the tape, and that changes the tuning

Possibly but what I meant was one particular instrument more out of tune than the others on the same recording.


Jim Garber - what's the story behind your picture?

[Willie Poole]

Modern equipment can make any band sound in tune if the tech knows what he is doing...I have heard recordings where a fellow and a lady were singing together and sounded like they were right on pitch when in fact the original recordings were no where near in the same key...

Also after many years of playing tapes the tape stretches and always sounds out of tune when being re mastered and sold as CD`s...I find this when I am re doing my cassettes onto CD`s.....And like Mike said in the old days bands tuned by ear usually to where ever the guitar was tuned and then if and when they capoed up to another key not all of them were right on as far as intonation was concerned....I have some recordings where the fiddle sounds way off but when we did the actual recording it sounded spot on, can`t explain it but it must have something to do with the tones of a treble instrument because I have heard it with mandolins also.....

Willie

[Michael H Geimer]

... but it doesn't mean that these are the recordings I have a preference to listen to for pleasure.

Listen to them as study. Things other than the out-of-tune instruments will become more clear with repeated listening.

e.g. I can only listen to The Carter Family by myself, as no one else I know will tolerate hearing those old recordings.

[Jim Garber]

Jim Garber - what's the story behind your picture?

That is what Jethro Burns (of Home and Jethro) called the demented chord, really a joke. I took a weeklong workshop with him many years ago and we all posed with that chord in the class photo which has since vanished form the face of the earth.

[sunburst]

I once heard this statement from some "expert", speaking on the radio about recording orchestras and the associated difficulties. "First of all, you have to understand that recording is a business." He then went on to talk about how nice it would be to move mics around, improve the signal, do extra takes etc., but they need to get it done and get those expensive musicians out of there! Playing music may be an art, but when it comes to commercial recording, (the source of those out-of-tune recordings), that is a business.

[JeffD]

And it occurred to me that a lot of the older stuff sounds sloppy and out of tune. ... Me, I prefer the groups who play cleanly.

That will limit yer jamming opportunities.

[Jim Garber]

I think there is a difference between playing out of tune -- certain variance from what is, to our ears as standard tuning on some notes -- and the tuning changes from older recording technologies. I know that early recording technologies would certainly change the pitch with possibly inconsistent speeds of the original recordings -- not necessarily the overall speed but the inability to maintain a constant speed.

OTOH I am not sure that is what Sarai is talking about. I highly doubt she is listening to early 1930s/40s recordings. It may just be her sensibility to the intonation of folk music. it is possibly that the "high lonesome, sound" does not appeal. Perhaps Sarai can let us know her listening background and experience.

[Marty Henrickson]

Right. I can't say I'm familiar with the "Ball Sisters Band", but if I was trying to learn "Red Haired Boy", that's probably not where I'd start. I'm sure there are probably dozens of versions on youtube.

[Jean Fugal]

Bill Monroe and Lester Flatt along with Old Fiddlers Melvin Wine and Tommy Jarrell Knew exactly how and where to play the "old tones"

[sarai]

not necessarily the overall speed but the inability to maintain a constant speed.

I think this may be the very issue I am having.

I highly doubt she is listening to early 1930s/40s recordings.

Yes I think Bill Monroe & Carter Family recorded in this time or into the 50's right?

So I think largely I am mistaking out of tune-ness with the problems in recording technology from the time.

Ok but another thing, is the clean-ness of the playing. Now I think modern pickers tend to be cleaner, have more note separation. Genius that he was, Bill Monroe's playing however is less-clean. So I have been continually interested in the general topic of how the music evolved in that way.

I hadn't heard much of this old style until I heard something similar on this "The Ball Sisters Band" recording which is more modern. So ...

if I had to rephrase my entire question it would be this ....

Why is this group of musicians playing sloppy and out of tune? Is it because A.) IS it stylistic (to sound like the old timers kinda do) or B.) Lack of ability to play better

[mingusb1]

For me most of the "clean" bluegrass goes too far all the way to sterile. The players have honed technique so much that often I don't hear any real life or excitement in the tune/song. Add to this the fact that most or all modern recordings are multi track. So if the mandolin player misses a note he goes back and fixes it. And every instrument in the ensemble is sort of compelled to do the same, so by the end there really aren't any irregularities or mistakes in the cut.

The old recordings were live, so mistakes are captured but so is the energy that comes from live band playing. Like where the fiddle kick-off is so hot that the singer comes in with all the emotion they have, and then later the banjo player aims to show the fiddler how it's done! You see what I'm saying.

Now it's true that there are many cleaner players than Monroe, but if you sit down and listen to his Bluegrass Breakdown you might convince yourself that "sloppy" can be perfect!

Z

[Mike Bunting]

For me most of the "clean" bluegrass goes too far all the way to sterile. The players have honed technique so much that often I don't hear any real life or excitement in the tune/song. Add to this the fact that most or all modern recordings are multi track. So if the mandolin player misses a note he goes back and fixes it. And every instrument in the ensemble is sort of compelled to do the same, so by the end there really aren't any irregularities or mistakes in the cut.

The old recordings were live, so mistakes are captured but so is the energy that comes from live band playing. Like where the fiddle kick-off is so hot that the singer comes in with all the emotion they have, and then later the banjo player aims to show the fiddler how it's done! You see what I'm saying.

Now it's true that there are many cleaner players than Monroe, but if you sit down and listen to his Bluegrass Breakdown you might convince yourself that "sloppy" can be perfect!

Z

You nailed it. Modern society goes way too far out of it's way to eliminate the grit and funk out of life on general.

[allenhopkins]

If you go back to the 1920's and '30's, recordings were made in one take, and no overdubbing or recording different parts in different channels. Musicians played just the way they played on stage, into recording equipment that just reproduced what it "heard." If a take wasn't acceptable, it was thrown out and they tried again.

Plus, recording companies took their equipment where the musicians were, setting up in music stores, hotel rooms, small-town auditoriums, wherever. The idea of a "recording studio" with a multiplicity of microphones, a "board" where "tracks" could be "mixed," and the capability to "fix" or "sweeten" particular parts, was well in the future.

Also, many of the musicians recorded were part-timers, fruit-tree salesmen (A P Carter) or farmers, unschooled and improvisational. Their performances could be inspired, beautiful musical train wrecks:



Jeez, I love Carter Brothers & Son! But whothehell could record and sell something like that now? It's not "clean," "precise," all the things that the record producer and the studio engineer would demand now.

Did I mention I love it?

Don't go to a bull looking for milk, and don't go to older recordings looking for the same qualities you'll find in the latest Nashville recording project. You'll find incredible energy, dazzling virtuosity, stylistic pioneering, and real "roots music," but you'll also find technological and technique limitations, and sometimes the triumph of aspiration and inspiration over skill and precision. And, "so what?"

[mandolirius]

I think it would be interesting to have a couple of examples of these "out of tune" recordings.

[John Duncan]

Sarai, the classic groups like Monroe from 45-46, Stanley Brothers, Flatt and Scruggs, The Country Gents, etc are absolutely imperative listening for your ear training for bluegrass, IMHO.

The "smooth/clean" groups I used to love don't hold up now that my ear is MUCH better. The more you listen, the better musician you become.

[barney 59]

That is what Jethro Burns (of Home and Jethro) called the demented chord, really a joke. I took a weeklong workshop with him many years ago and we all posed with that chord in the class photo which has since vanished form the face of the earth.

John Rossette thinks he has it ---m a y b e----in a box in his garage that he plans to look for some day -----

[Ivan Kelsall]

The pitch of the tunes on the first 'Dillards' recording,"Backporch Bluegrass" is all over the place.Until i bought a record turntable with a variable speed motor,i couldn't practice along to it.When the recording was put onto CD,there was an opportunity to iron out the pitch,but it went onto the CD just as it was. I've heard (& bought) quite a few old Bluegrass recordings where the pitch is off.There's nothing you can do about it,so i just listen.I also hear many tunes on I'net Bluegrass radio stations where the pitch is off. I tried to pick along with a Vern Williams Band tune a couple of days ago,but it was in Bb#. I have the 2 VWB recordings on CD & some of the tunes are fine,but others are 'not quite right' !,
Ivan

[Mike Bunting]

Bb#? B maybe?

[Bernie Daniel]

That is what Jethro Burns (of Home and Jethro) called the demented chord, really a joke. I took a weeklong workshop with him many years ago and we all posed with that chord in the class photo which has since vanished form the face of the earth.

OT: I'm glad someone asked the question that I've had ever since I saw at avatar!

[Bernie Daniel]

The pitch of the tunes on the first 'Dillards' recording,"Backporch Bluegrass" is all over the place.Until i bought a record turntable with a variable speed motor,i couldn't practice along to it.When the recording was put onto CD,there was an opportunity to iron out the pitch,but it went onto the CD just as it was. I've heard (& bought) quite a few old Bluegrass recordings where the pitch is off.There's nothing you can do about it,so i just listen.I also hear many tunes on I'net Bluegrass radio stations where the pitch is off. I tried to pick along with a Vern Williams Band tune a couple of days ago,but it was in Bb#. I have the 2 VWB recordings on CD & some of the tunes are fine,but others are 'not quite right' !, Ivan

Actually Ivan there is one good solution. Rip the CD to digital (mp3's) and then play it on something like Amazing Slow Downer where you can vary the pitch and not alter the tempo. At least one of the old Monroe LP's seems to be a half pitch off (e.g., songs in A are in A#) so I think the band might have intentionally tuned high or Monroe's mandolin was off that day as I'm sure everyone else would have had to tune up to him! I think they did it intentionally however for effect or to make it hard to copy their stuff?