the demise of the pick guard

[almeriastrings]

When i bought my Lebeda,it had an abbreviated style guard on it,but i didn't like the shape. After seeing a pic.of a Tom Ellis guard,i re-shaped mine,put it back on & there it's staying as part of it's original build.

That is very well done, Ivan. Tasteful. How is the end closest to the bridge fixed?

I like those 'abbreviated' guards myself. That one is nicely proportioned.

[StuartGold]

This is a strange idea but my wife just got a new ebony chin rest for her violin and gave me her old one. I looked at it and suddenly I thought: if you could flatten the top curved area (chin area) and a bit of the bottom for thickness, it would make a very nice pick guard. It would only be about 3" long but might work well if you're playing "off the coast of Florida" so to say. Has anyone heard of anyone doing this?

[Paul Hostetter]

I have, but...I wouldn't. No harm done in trying though. Well, actually, come to think of it, it'd be no good to a violinist again.

[Capt. E]

I've have come to the conclusion that most top wear comes from something other than the pick. Fingernails are the biggest offender. I saw one mandolin that had a spot about an inch in diameter worn through to the finish, above the bridge and realized it was exactly where the button is on a long-sleeve shirt. I'm even of the opinion that the big hole in Willie Nelson's guitar comes mostly from his finger nails, not his pick.
Look at the molded black affair on a Lyon and Healy A...that is a finger rest, not a pick guard. It is very much equivalent to a chin-rest on a violin. Let's stop calling them pick-guards.

[Paul Hostetter]

I've have come to the conclusion that most top wear comes from something other than the pick. Fingernails are the biggest offender. I saw one mandolin that had a spot about an inch in diameter...

See my post #14 on the first page of this thread.

Look at the molded black affair on a Lyon and Healy A...that is a finger rest, not a pick guard. It is very much equivalent to a chin-rest on a violin. Let's stop calling them pick-guards.

Can't join you on that one. Can't join you on adding a hyphen to the word chinrest either.

[Capt. E]

See my post #14 on the first page of this thread.



Can't join you on that one. Can't join you on adding a hyphen to the word chinrest either.

Well, I probably went a bit overboard comparing a violin chinrest with a pick guard, and the hyphen was unnecessary.
It is interesting that recent instruments often lack a finger rest (pick guard) replaced by the latest "fad";the armrest (I admit to owning two of those). My favorite setup is an abbreviated pick guard with a McClung armrest. I also understand people removing pick guards because they do change the picking angle etc. (I've probably misspelled several words)

[Martian]

As Rob indicates, as a builder, pick guards are cheap insurance for expensive finishes. I've decided to include them unless requested otherwise to help keep those stabby pinky nails away from my carefully applied varnish and shellac tops . . . and they're attractive when not built to cover a quarter of the top!







Steve

Steves, I love these mini guards, how do you attach? a friend epoxies 2 finish nails on the back, then drills 2 hols in fb extension, so they come on and off. Yours are beautiful

[Steve Sorensen]

Mike,
I use a single screw into the fingerboard support. Since the Ebony bracket I use is shaped to fit up against the fingerboard support and under the fingerboard, the fingernail-guard stays quite well.
Steve

[David Houchens]

I fixed a hole that went all the way through at one point. He even wore down around the small end of the f hole. Maybe planting his pinkie in the hole? Had to dish out the area and using blue carbon paper fit a piece of spruce to level it back. I can't find a picture of the finished repair, but thinned a piece of ebony to around .030 and glued on top of the spruce patch. And told him to clip his nails. You can see in the picture where the finish has been applied and reapplied before he finally wore through.

[Jim Garber]

I fixed a hole that went all the way through at one point. He even wore down around the small end of the f hole. Maybe planting his pinkie in the hole? Had to dish out the area and using blue carbon paper fit a piece of spruce to level it back. I can't find a picture of the finished repair, but thinned a piece of ebony to around .030 and glued on top of the spruce patch. And told him to clip his nails. You can see in the picture where the finish has been applied and reapplied before he finally wore through.

Sorry, David... I am not sure who you are talking about. Who is "he"? Did I miss something?

[pefjr]

Pickguards change the tone negatively, and in some cases like the F2 lower the volume as well. The tail piece alters tone also. If there was a wooden tail piece made, preferably ebony, I would replace the metal TP. Note: This is IMO, don't ask for scientific data.

[Dave Cohen]

"Pickguards change the tone negatively,..."

Baloney. Most pickguards are far enough above the soundhole(s) area that they don't affect the mass of air vibrating in the soundhole(s). At most, the pickguard might affect the directional properties of the instrument's radiativity, but I have never seen (or heard) that.

"The tail piece alters tone also."

Maybe, but it depends more on mass than anything else. A significant difference in mass at the tail end of the instrument can have some effect on (some of the) modal frequencies. If you just swapped wood for metal, you might or might not get the effect you want. About 30 grams is about as light as mandolin tailpieces typically get. There are metal tailpieces at that mass (e.g., conventional stamped, John Hamlett's, others?), and there are cast metal mandolin tailpieces with masses in excess of 80 grams. While wood has a lower density, you have to use a greater volume of it to get a tailpiece that won't catastrophically self-destruct. So you end up with a comparably heavy tailpiece. Go ahead, ask me how I know that.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[pefjr]

"Pickguards change the tone negatively,..."

Baloney. Most pickguards are far enough above the soundhole(s) area that they don't affect the mass of air vibrating in the soundhole(s). At most, the pickguard might affect the directional properties of the instrument's radiativity, but I have never seen (or heard) that.

"The tail piece alters tone also."

Maybe, but it depends more on mass than anything else. A significant difference in mass at the tail end of the instrument can have some effect on (some of the) modal frequencies. If you just swapped wood for metal, you might or might not get the effect you want. About 30 grams is about as light as mandolin tailpieces typically get. There are metal tailpieces at that mass (e.g., conventional stamped, John Hamlett's, others?), and there are cast metal mandolin tailpieces with masses in excess of 80 grams. While wood has a lower density, you have to use a greater volume of it to get a tailpiece that won't catastrophically self-destruct. So you end up with a comparably heavy tailpiece. Go ahead, ask me how I know that.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

Let me repeat my note for those that knee jerk without paying attention:

Note: This is IMO, don't ask for scientific data

So, would you like a picture like this one:Based on my very own personal experience the volume picked up considerably when I removed the big ugly collectors obstacle covering the oval. Now take your baloney and make yourself a sandwich for lunch. Nice mando's BTW on your site. OK......geez...I'll make your day, ......How do you know that?

[David Houchens]

Jim, you didn't miss it. I didn't want to mention a name in case the spcm (society to prevent cruelty to mandolins ) was listening in.
It's a rosewood Frailey (sp). There also a nice gouge through the scroll ridge which I guess is his upstroke with the pick. Lots of pick rash everywhere. Still a nice sounding mandolin.

[David Houchens]

Heres the pickguard/fingerguard and arm rest on my newest Possum Head mandolin.
The pickguard/ fingerguard is Madagascar RW and the armrest is Honduran RW. I didn't notice any difference in tone or volume but its been on most of the time. Plus, I hear some things one day and not another. Depends on how loud my ears are ringing. Or if I'm paying attention.


PS I think I posted this picture somewhere else, so excuse the duplicate.

[chaz]

I have the same Epiphone. What did you do after you removed the pickguard? Did you just leave the holes? If so, do the holes affect the sound? Are they really unsightly?

Also, if take it off, does it look like it is feasible to put it back on at a later date?

Thanks!

[rf37]

I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to no much about effects of sound with or without pick guards (I will leave that up to those that know a little). I do not have high dollar mandolins but the ones I do have I used my hard earned money to get them so to me they mean just as much. However, Every mandolin I have had in the past did not have a guard...at the time I preferred it that way. I recently bought a new Kentucky KM 505. It had a guard....I asked during the order process if the pick guard was already installed and if it was not, then please leave it off. They informed me that it was already mounted. So I said ok. I thought I would just take it off when I got it. After the mandolin arrived...I played it and played it and am still playing it. Idid not want to remove it until I was sure mandolin was a keeper. I did not notice a difference in sound but I did notice a considerable difference in my hand position...so much so that my playing(which is not so good) was smoother and I had less right hand discomfort. So now...I am not sure I will play without one ever again. As far as the look....I always get truss rod covers custom built or as I did recently...build my own cover...so now I have the option to do the same with the pick guard.
So to make short story longer...I have grown to like my km505 pick guard included simply because it makes my pick'n more enjoyable for me and especially for those around me. Iam now a member of "The pick guard camp"
rf37

[Canoedad]

Those big Gibson pick guards always remind me of 1970s ties.

[DavidKOS]

I'll offer a historical POV.

The instruments were originally designed as classical mandolins, and were most likely intended to be played with somewhat thinner picks, sitting, with the other instruments in all those pictures of the Gibson mandolin ensembles. No one was trying to play at maximum volume, except for stage performers.

The pickguard does function as a finger rest in traditional pick holding methods, not firmly planting fingers but as a surface that allows the little finger of the hand to have a reference.

On archtop guitars I was taught to adjust the pickguard parallel to the plane of the strings and at the right level so the player is comfortable.

Now, Bluegrass mandolin comes along, and the instrument is used in another stylistic manner - the playing style is hard and aggressive, the tone color preferred is one of a hard pick and often played over the fingerboard extension (subject of many threads), and has to compete with a Scruggs-style banjo to be heard.

No wonder guys would resort to removing pickguards to have more access to the strings, and assuming that the pickguard also dampened some volume somehow.

Those makers on this thread that now offer pickguards as an option may have the right idea in terms of the market.

If I were to order a new F style mandolin, I would want a full fretted extension and a pickguard - but many if not most other folks might prefer to have no extension or a scooped extension, and no pickguard.

The miniature pickguards seem like a good idea too.

[Mark Gunter]

Seems strange to me that folk can be so adamant that covering or partially covering an f-hole has no effect on sound, cannot dampen sound, etc. It is a fact that objects between a source of sound and a listener provide interference to sound transmission, as it is a well known fact that sound is a mechanical phenomenon consisting of the movement of air in waves.

It would be impossible for a baffle to have absolutely no effect. Perhaps most of the folk here mean to say that the pick guard/finger rest has no appreciable effect on the sound. In which case this might hold true for the majority of listeners.

Note, the action of sound waves (pulsations of air) against a baffle, such as a pickguard, will necessary engender vibrations of the baffle material. The amount of damping that takes place with a baffle will depend partly on how well the baffle, which can act as a diaphram, responds to and transfers the vibration to the air surrounding it.

Maybe true that no one can ever hear a difference when a pick guard is removed or installed (though I highly doubt it) but this does not mean that its presence has no effect on the sound. That's baloney IMO.

[Ken Waltham]

I agree with your statement David, but, it may be even simpler. Monroe was a guy who didn't care much about anything but getting his music out there. His pickguard from a really fine condition ( when he bought it) 1923 F5 either came off, rattled, or whatever, and he just never put it back on. Early photos show it intact. He spawned a whole generation of imitators, and it became sort of a "Bluegrass thing" to do, because that's the way Bill did it. After all, you get more volume, right? Not at all.
The first Loar I ever played was David McLaughlin's. He handed it to me ( with pickguard intact) and said "some people think these decrease the volume, or something very close to that. He could get tons of volume, and, if anyone remembers them in their heyday, you could hear him approaching the mic from several feet away, as he played his lead in notes to a solo.
This is anecdotal evidence, I admit, but, I have never noticed a decrease in volume from a pickguard. And, as my buddy Tom once said, a Gibson without a p/g looks like a 50's Caddy with no fenderskirts.

[sunburst]

...The first Loar I ever played was David McLaughlin's. He handed it to me ( with pickguard intact) and said "some people think these decrease the volume, or something very close to that...

Same here. Furthermore, he said that he had played the mandolin into the same mic, from the same distance, in the studio, with and without the pick guard, and there was no difference in the sound levels. So there's one more anecdote.

[sunburst]

Seems strange to me that folk can be so adamant that covering or partially covering an f-hole has no effect on sound, cannot dampen sound, etc. It is a fact that objects between a source of sound and a listener provide interference to sound transmission, as it is a well known fact that sound is a mechanical phenomenon consisting of the movement of air in waves.

It would be impossible for a baffle to have absolutely no effect. Perhaps most of the folk here mean to say that the pick guard/finger rest has no appreciable effect on the sound. In which case this might hold true for the majority of listeners.

Note, the action of sound waves (pulsations of air) against a baffle, such as a pickguard, will necessary engender vibrations of the baffle material. The amount of damping that takes place with a baffle will depend partly on how well the baffle, which can act as a diaphram, responds to and transfers the vibration to the air surrounding it.

Maybe true that no one can ever hear a difference when a pick guard is removed or installed (though I highly doubt it) but this does not mean that its presence has no effect on the sound. That's baloney IMO.

In case you don't know this, Dave Cohen, who posted above (#37) can back up what he says with evidence from measurements of mandolin sound, and with experience as a luthier.
Respectfully, with what do you back up
"...the action of sound waves (pulsations of air) against a baffle, such as a pickguard, will necessary engender vibrations of the baffle material. The amount of damping that takes place with a baffle will depend partly on how well the baffle, which can act as a diaphram, responds to and transfers the vibration to the air surrounding it"
and related statements?

[Jim Adwell]

Seems strange to me that folk can be so adamant that covering or partially covering an f-hole has no effect on sound, cannot dampen sound, etc. It is a fact that objects between a source of sound and a listener provide interference to sound transmission, as it is a well known fact that sound is a mechanical phenomenon consisting of the movement of air in waves.

The sound does not come out of the f-holes (or any other hole) on the top, it comes from the top itself. Covering an opening loosely with a floating pickguard isn't any different than covering another part of the top.

My own anecdotal experience suggests that a pickguard or the lack of one makes no hearable difference in the sound. Even a plastic pickguard glued to a guitar top doesn't sound any different to me than an un-pickguarded top.

[dang]

Respectfully, with what do you back up
"...the action of sound waves (pulsations of air) against a baffle, such as a pickguard, will necessary engender vibrations of the baffle material. The amount of damping that takes place with a baffle will depend partly on how well the baffle, which can act as a diaphram, responds to and transfers the vibration to the air surrounding it"
and related statements?

I thought he was describing a Virzi