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Thread: the demise of the pick guard

  1. #51
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    I prefer not to have a pick guard since I don't plant a finger on the mandolin. I really like the look of some of the cutaway pick guards that don't cover the sound hole though. I saw this one on a 1980 Stiver #60
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  2. #52
    Purveyor of Sunshine sgarrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    A pick guard is a requirement for me.

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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Waltham View Post
    His pickguard from a really fine condition ( when he bought it) 1923 F5 either came off, rattled, or whatever, and he just never put it back on. Early photos show it intact. He spawned a whole generation of imitators, and it became sort of a "Bluegrass thing" to do, because that's the way Bill did it. )
    Thanks!

    I'm sure there is an interaction between the vibrating top, the air inside the and outside the mandolin, and the f holes would seem to also act like a port in a speaker. I wonder if any studies on f hole area have been done.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I wonder if any studies on f hole area have been done.
    Yes, they have.

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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Yes, they have.
    I was fairly certain that there were studies. If you have the links I'd love to see them - it would save a lot of time to know which are the right places to look. Thanks.

  7. #56
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Adwell View Post
    The sound does not come out of the f-holes (or any other hole) on the top, it comes from the top itself. Covering an opening loosely with a floating pickguard isn't any different than covering another part of the top.

    My own anecdotal experience suggests that a pickguard or the lack of one makes no hearable difference in the sound. Even a plastic pickguard glued to a guitar top doesn't sound any different to me than an un-pickguarded top.
    Absolutely agree. It is the entire top vibrating which creates the sound. I think markscarts' statement on baffles is true enough in an academic sense, but the question here is whether a pick guard really qualifies as a baffle. The f-holes are not like speakers, where sound emanates only from the holes themselves. Thus, the pick guard partially blocking an f-hole is not really doing what "common sense" might suggest, in terms of blocking sound. The f-holes are important in the quality/tone of the sound (as evidenced by the recent study on violin hole shapes), and apparently projection too, but volume didn't seem to be a factor. At least, not in terms of whether it emanates from the holes themselves. Their shape contributes to the volume and projection due to changing the overall vibration of the top, not as "speakers".

    My first mandolin had no pick guard, and I got used to playing without one. When I bought my Ellis, I didn't think I wanted a pick guard to be there. I experimented with it on and off, trying to convince myself that it was reducing my volume. But I couldn't tell any difference (non-scientific anecdote, but still...). Eventually I kept it on there, and got used to it. Now I have to have it on there. What rf37 said in post #42 holds true for me as well. It changed my hand position in a good way, and vastly improved my right hand technique. I don't post on the guard, but I lightly brush my last two fingers across it, and it helps keep my hand more in-plane with the strings when picking.

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  9. #57
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    I always figured that if the pick guard had any appreciable effect (everything likely has some effect on everything), that effect was intended by the luthier, so removing the original pickguard was as much a modification of the original sound as adding one to an instrument built without.

    As a result, I just keep it as is, with or without, as it came.
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  10. #58
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    As is so often the case, many people post assumptions and even incorrect assertions, based on what appears to be "common sense", without ever consulting the scientific literature. It is as if because they don't know about existing work (and even well-established physics), it must not exist. There are an awful lot of instances in which "common sense" is neither.

    Regarding sound radiation from string instruments, there are two frequency regimes with different mechanisms of sound radiation. In the low frequency regime, sound is radiated in two ways. One is via "soundhole radiation", in which the main plate modes of motion interact (aka "couple") with the main air mode or "Helmholtz air resonance". In the Helmholtz air resonance, air inside the instrument body cavity vibrates in its' first normal mode of motion, and that mode of motion serves as a spring for a "piston" of air vibrating in the soundhole region. In practice, the amplitude of that motion is no more than about 3x to thickness of the top plate. And, it is worth noting, the pickguards in most mandolins are well above the limits of the soundhole air piston's amplitude envelope. The soundhole air piston in turn pushes air molecules outside that region, until the vibratory air motion eventually reached the listeners' ears. The other mechanism is air motion outside the body of the instrument induced by the motion of the plates. That mechanism is less prominent at low frequencies. At higher frequencies, there isn't much soundhole radiation, but the second type (i.e., the outside-the-body stuff) comes into its own at high enough frequencies that the velocity of the plate motion is equal to or greater than the average velocity of the air molecules outside the body. The take home is that the strength of the soundhole radiation is not affected at all by a pick guard over the hole, but the directional properties will be affected close to the instrument. Further from the instrument (like no more than a meter away from the body), even the directional properties are not affected. Further, the second (i.e., outside-the-body) mechanism is hardly affected at all by the presence or absence of a pick guard.

    Some people in this thread wondered if there had been any work on this stuff. As John Sunburst correctly pointed out, there certainly has been. Some of it began in the mid 19th century with the works of Helmholtz and Savart, some in the early 20th century with the work of C.V. Raman, some in the mid 20th century with the work of Saunders, Hutchins, and others. A whole lot of your questions are answered by the works of many of the Swedes and others at KTH in the 1960s - 1980s.

    That is enough for now, although as you can surmise from the contents of my post, there is an awful lot more.

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  12. #59
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cohen View Post
    As is so often the case, many people post assumptions and even incorrect assertions, based on what appears to be "common sense", without ever consulting the scientific literature.
    .......
    Regarding sound radiation from string instruments, there are two frequency regimes with different mechanisms of sound radiation..... the pickguards in most mandolins are well above the limits of the soundhole air piston's amplitude envelope. ....... The take home is that the strength of the soundhole radiation is not affected at all by a pick guard over the hole, but the directional properties will be affected close to the instrument. Further from the instrument (like no more than a meter away from the body), even the directional properties are not affected. ....

    .... Some of it began in the mid 19th century with the works of Helmholtz and Savart, some in the early 20th century with the work of C.V. Raman, some in the mid 20th century with the work of Saunders, Hutchins, and others. A whole lot of your questions are answered by the works of many of the Swedes and others at KTH in the 1960s - 1980s.

    That is enough for now, although as you can surmise from the contents of my post, there is an awful lot more.
    I'd like to read the most recent stuff but am not even sure what to google.

    Thanks for mentioning Helmholtz and Savart, et al.

    The fact that the pickguard will affect the way sound radiates near the instrument would account for the anecdotal idea that the pickguard lowers volume.

  13. #60
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    ...If you have the links I'd love to see them...
    Unfortunately, I don't have links saved anywhere, I'd have to look stuff up, and... what the heck, you can do that yourself!
    Start with the names Dave mentioned, and while you at it, check out some of his (Dave's) work too.

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  15. #61
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    David brings up a very simple fact, read the old catalogs, they are NOT referred to as "pick guards", they are "finger rests".
    When Bill's irritated him, for whatever reason, he just took it off. It has so little to do with volume, as other (far more learned than I) researchers have shared.
    That said, I can understand the desire to show the whole top, I also see the value in abbreviated size in finger rests. Personally, I would rather put "pinky ruts" in a finger rest than dig a "grave" in a fine, carefully chosen, piece of top wood.
    Mine, has a full size, it's an early 70's Alvarez but, it feels right for me, I have had plenty of heads turn when I dig in. Just one mans opinion.
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  17. #62
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by sunburst View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't have links saved anywhere, I'd have to look stuff up, and... what the heck, you can do that yourself!
    Start with the names Dave mentioned, and while you at it, check out some of his (Dave's) work too.

    Here's at least a starting point. Dr Cohen's paper has a bibliography that might help find other papers also.
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  19. #63
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Just a few rambling thoughts about pick guards finger rests or what ever you want to call them. Down thru the years I have played with them if the mandolin had them without if it didn't. I won't get into the argument of If it dampens sound or not, I just thought if that little bit reduced volume or tone of the mandolin I weren't no count noway. As I got older I started having some trouble with my hands and need somewhere to rest it, whiteout a pick guard I rest my hand on the bridge which I think dampens more than the pick guards so now if it don't have one I get one on it. I don't like the little ones, they seem like someone wearing a coat that is too small, it don't seem to fit. By the way I liked the wide ties, they went with my wide body.

    Don't mean to poke fun at anyone but I laughed when I read the post about removing the pick guard and finding SCREWS held it on like screws into the mandolin was terrible, I wondered what was holding his tuners on.

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  21. #64
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Flip side I added them when they didn't come with one..

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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    You want to know what REALLY dampens the sound?! Well, planting your pinky on the mandolin top (or heavily brushing your fingers against it) dampens the sound! And pressing the mandolin against your belly on the back also dampens the sound! A finger-rest ("pickguard") prevents the first thing from becoming a problem, but you can also avoid it by using a different playing technique, that is, never rest your pinky or brush your fingers on the top. And a ToneGard prevents the second thing from becoming a problem, but you can avoid it by using a different playing technique, that is, never rest the mandolin against your body.

    But the fact is that many of us do not WANT to adopt a different playing technique!! We find it awkward. It can be helpful to plant, or to brush one's fingers, to provide a spatial reference for the right hand when picking. Or, as an anchor for tremolo, or for playing well away from the bridge. A whole LOT of great players plant or brush, so it's not necessarily "bad" technique. Furthermore, a whole LOT of great players hold the mandolin near their body, especially when they have to play standing up (e.g., onstage). It's a much easier to use a ToneGard than to find a whole new playing position, at least for most of us.

    I say that pickguards and ToneGards are great things. And so are armrests, while we're speaking about such things. All these accessories exist for perfectly good reasons. Not all of us take full advantage of them all, or even want them, but some of us certainly do.
    Last edited by sblock; Nov-13-2015 at 7:42pm.

  23. #66
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    No arm rest, no Tone Guard. Too cheap to buy something that learning some technique correction may (or may not) correct. I absolutely agree "they have their place" I will not argue that point. They are just not ones I see a requirement for me. Use anything which makes you feel comfortable and sound the way you want. More playing is better playing.
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  24. #67
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Respectfully, with what do you back up
    "...the action of sound waves (pulsations of air) against a baffle, such as a pickguard, will necessary engender vibrations of the baffle material. The amount of damping that takes place with a baffle will depend partly on how well the baffle, which can act as a diaphram, responds to and transfers the vibration to the air surrounding it"
    and related statements?
    Thank you, John. At this point, I might wish that I could reply that I have a formal education and many years of research in the subject to back it up, but I can't, and at any rate that shouldn't be necessary to exemplify my point. My formal education is in another realm. But I began studying (narrowly) molecular movement theory in my teens, and have studied wave theory and sonic theories enough for a casual acquaintance with the same. That type of education is not required to understand the effects of vibration on the air, and the mechanical effects of vibrating air against materials like sheets of wood, plastic and eardrums. I appreciate that asked with all respect. I would respectfully submit that luthier experience is not required to understand the physics, and also that being an experienced luthier does not confer upon one infallibility in opinions on the instrument or the craft. If such were the case, the many historical innovations we enjoy in instrument design, inasmuch as these have sometime been brought about by younger, less-experienced luthiers and dabblers throughout history, might not exist today.

    I thought he was describing a Virzi
    dang, I may as well have been describing a virzi, because we are discussing a thin piece of wood, plastic, or other material suspended above a vibrating top. The obvious differences are that it is mounted to the exterior, and that whereas a virzi is assembled in such a way as to encourage its free vibration, a pick guard is assembled in such a way as to discourage it.

    ---------------------------

    The sound does not come out of the f-holes (or any other hole) on the top, it comes from the top itself. Covering an opening loosely with a floating pickguard isn't any different than covering another part of the top.
    Jim, you make a very good point. I do not claim to be an expert here, and I've heard from some already who have indicated that I'm out of my league, and I have no argument for that. I am only making a sensible argument that items that are in the path of sound waves, which are mechanical pulsations of air, are "interference" items. I'm not stating that they make an "appreciable" difference, but I am stating my belief based on the physics involved that they do make a difference. The revered luthier, Dave Cohen, admitted to this when he wrote the following:

    At most, the pickguard might affect the directional properties of the instrument's radiativity, but I have never seen (or heard) that.
    It should be intuitive for an educated person who understands how sound works and what baffles consist of to comprehend the possibility.

    Once the possibility is understood, there comes the question of whether any interference is actually significant. I believe most of us would anecdotally answer, "No." I cannot detect any appreciable difference. That is where I find myself. My problem arises when I go on to say, "Since I can detect no appreciable difference, then NO ONE can detect it." To that I say, hogwash. Even if you were to test with an instrument, the sensitivity of which is far beyond the normal range of human hearing, you still cannot say that NO human can hear the difference. Therefore, it seems strange to me that folk can be so adamant about it. There have been some here who attest that they can hear the difference. Dave, and by extension John, say "Baloney." Well, OK, no more argument with you guys.

    Finally, regarding the soundhole of an instrument, it has been said:

    The sound does not come out of the f-holes (or any other hole) on the top, it comes from the top itself.
    Why does the top have sound holes in the front? Why are mutes placed as baffles in the soundholes effective? Do they merely restrict the top vibration due to contact with the top? Do they merely restrict the top vibration by stopping the free movement of air in and out of the top? Then, if air must flow in and out of the top in order for the soundboard to vibrate freely, does the air being "pumped" in and out of the top through sound holes itself make no sound waves? And finally, if "sound" (air vibrations) does not issue from the soundholes at all, why do we not place the holes elsewhere, like sides or back?

    Or maybe rather than asking all these legitimate questions, I should ask how you are qualified to assert that sound does not issue from sound holes? Respectfully, of course.
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Wow, sorry, I was responding to the second page and honestly hadn't noticed we were already two pages past that

    Having now read the third page, just want to say that I appreciate the explanation and the knowledge that Dave Cohen has shared on this page, it is very informative. Dave obviously knows a great deal about the subject.
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  26. #69
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by sblock View Post
    You want to know what REALLY dampens the sound?! Well, planting your pinky on the mandolin top (or heavily brushing your fingers against it) dampens the sound! .
    I'm pretty sure that the way I was told that the finger rest works is that one barely touches it, it's there to provide a spatial reference not a support.

    Although it is standard practice in BG banjo to plant the fingers when playing all those rolls.

  27. #70
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    From DavidKOS - "Although it is standard practice in BG banjo to plant the fingers when playing all those rolls.". Quite true David.One or two fingers can be rested on the banjo head,but they're rested there quite lightly,simply to provide a 'playing platform' for the picking fingers.The pressure from the fingers,is nothing compared to the pressure from the bridge & adds very little if any added pressure,certainly nothing you can hear.
    From David Cohen - "And, it is worth noting, the pickguards in most mandolins are well above the limits of the soundhole air piston's amplitude envelope.". I won't pretend to understand 'absolutely' David's elloquent explanation - but i'll take that to mean that a pickguard covering a sound hole has little if any effect on the tone/volume of the instrument ?.
    I have to say that from an easthetic point of view,i rather like pickguards & it's only the cost of importing decent ones from the US that have prevented me from adding one to my Weber & Lebeda. The Lebeda has it's own rather 'annonymous' looking pickguard which adds nothing to the mandolin's appearance,hence it's consignment to the string compartment in it's case,
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  29. #71
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    I don't play as much as some folks (but every day), and I have never yet hit the top of the instrument with the pick, no matter how enthusiastically I am striking the strings. The pick is always going laterally. Does anyone routinely find themselves hitting either the pickguard or the top of the mandolin with the pick? (I have seen old mandos with a lot of scratches and nicks on the top, so somebody must do it.)

    One of these days I am going to buy that A type kit that doesn't have sound holes cut into it, and just assemble an A style mandolin with no sound holes, just to find out what it sounds like. Should be interesting and I'll post the results eventually.

    https://www.internationalviolin.com/...out-fholes-cut

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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    I don't play as much as some folks (but every day), and I have never yet hit the top of the instrument with the pick, no matter how enthusiastically I am striking the strings. The pick is always going laterally. Does anyone routinely find themselves hitting either the pickguard or the top of the mandolin with the pick? (I have seen old mandos with a lot of scratches and nicks on the top, so somebody must do it.)

    One of these days I am going to buy that A type kit that doesn't have sound holes cut into it, and just assemble an A style
    mandolin with no sound holes, just to find out what it sounds like. Should be interesting and I'll post the results eventually.

    https://www.internationalviolin.com/...out-fholes-cut
    I don't think it will be interesting I think it will be dead. I have never built an instrument and claim no vast knowledge about same, but I have built speaker cabinets. The sound of the speaker is produced by the movemen of the paper or what ever the speaker is made of. The ports do not release the sound they allow air to be moved in and out of the enclosure, so the speaker does not have that resistance behind it. I would think the "sound holes" in an instruments would do the same thing allowing more freedom of movement for the top. That would also explain why a pick guard over a hole but not against the top would have no effect on the sound but a blockage of the hole like the mute as someone mentioned would. The mute is restricting the air movement and thus the freedom of the top movement. I could be wrong but my limited knowledge and my logic says I'm right.

  32. #73
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Human nature is so very interesting. What fascinates me about this discussion is the unfounded assumption we almost automatically make that a large pick guard (or "finger rest") just has to have a bad effect on the sound. Since there is no evidence to support this contention, why not assume that the effect is positive instead?

    This could extend to many of the "it has just got to be done this way to be right" facets of mandolin design and construction as well. Things we "know" to be "true" but have no evidence at all to support.

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  34. #74
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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    The sound of the speaker is produced by the movemen of the paper or what ever the speaker is made of. The ports do not release the sound they allow air to be moved in and out of the enclosure
    Air doesn't really move in and out of the enclosure, either on a speaker or a mandolin. If you put your hand in front of it, you're not going to feel a breeze blowing on it. The opening just allows the air molecules to vibrate in a wave form, and for that wave form to have a continuous medium. The molecules do move back and forth on a very small scale, but it is not air flow as some people tend to think.

    The difference with a speaker is that the paper is starting the vibration of the air inside the enclosure, and needs an opening for the medium to be continuous to the outside world. On a mandolin, the wood top is doing what the speaker paper element does. It's already exposed to the outside world, worth a continuous medium to vibrate. The sound holes just allow the vibration of the internal air of the mandolin (which is affected by the back plate as well, including all the effects of the waves bouncing around in there, producing overtones, etc.) to be released and affect the sound waves already produced by the vibrating top.

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    Default Re: the demise of the pick guard

    Tobin I beg to differ if the music has a heavy bass and is loud you can feel air movement at the ports of speaker enclosures. I know the paper in a speaker is moving more than the top of a mandolin so the air movement would be much less and harder to impossible to detect but I think the principal is the same.

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