the demise of the pick guard

[Jim Adwell]

One of my favorites is the "tube amps sound better than SS guitar amps" myth. I recall a few studies where listeners could not tell accurately which type of amp was being used - even though so many guys claim they can tell.

That's from the old "crossover noise/distortion in transistor amps" thing from ~50 years ago. The earlier solid state amps were easy to distinguish from the tube amps of the day by the high frequency distortion present (assuming one's hearing was sufficiently acute in the higher frequencies). Newer types of devices and different circuit designs fixed that long ago, but the idea keeps getting resurrected from time to time, probably by makers of retro tube amps.

[Rick Lindstrom]

(EDIT) It's an attitude that I don't completely understand. It seems to me that if we consider ourselves to be humans on an equal footing with other humans, we must assume that we are subject to the same prejudices, conditioning and self deception, and that we are equally likely to find out that evidence indicates we may be wrong.(EDIT)

Most people are pretty reluctant to question the validity of their dearly held assumptions, or guiding fictions (as Albert Adler would have called it). In fact I don't think it ever occurs to people to do so. They just "know what they know". Present group excepted,of course.

[Wes Brandt]

….One of my favorites is the "tube amps sound better than SS guitar amps" myth. I recall a few studies where listeners could not tell accurately which type of amp was being used - even though so many guys claim they can tell.

Better?… they certainly can sound very different and unless you only use very "clean" sounds, there are many things that a tube amp can do that a transistor amp cannot, ...unless it has tube amp modeling built into it like so many modern ones do…

[sblock]

Better?… they certainly can sound very different and unless you only use very "clean" sounds, there are many things that a tube amp can do that a transistor amp cannot, ...unless it has tube amp modeling built into it like so many modern ones do…

Yes, but I think that's precisely the point! There is nothing intrinsically "superior" about the sound of tube amps -- it's just that many folks prefer the sounds of their 'softer' nonlinearities when they're overdriven (and it's also what they were used to). But with suitable circuitry, modern transistor-based amps can be constructed that are sonically indistinguishable from tube amps, because they have the same gain and same non-linearities. And with today's digital synthesis capabilities, it's possible to model just about any arbitrary audio response (transfer function) in an audio amp. Each year, there are fewer and fewer "experts" around who claim they can still hear the difference.

As the great physicist Max Planck pointed out, "Science advances, one funeral at a time."

[DavidKOS]

Better?… they certainly can sound very different and unless you only use very "clean" sounds, there are many things that a tube amp can do that a transistor amp cannot, ...unless it has tube amp modeling built into it like so many modern ones do…

Which are my current amps of choice, digital modeling amps.

Yes, but I think that's precisely the point! There is nothing intrinsically "superior" about the sound of tube amps -- it's just that many folks prefer the sounds of their 'softer' nonlinearities when they're overdriven (and it's also what they were used to). But with suitable circuitry, modern transistor-based amps can be constructed that are sonically indistinguishable from tube amps, because they have the same gain and same non-linearities. And with today's digital synthesis capabilities, it's possible to model just about any arbitrary audio response (transfer function) in an audio amp. Each year, there are fewer and fewer "experts" around who claim they can still hear the difference.

"

That is the whole point. Some technology is outdated, some people still like to use it, it all depends on the musical need. It's not always a simple case of "better".

Tube or SS....pickguard or none....and so on.

[Timbofood]

It's rather like when my brother died,
My wife told me: "It doesn't get better, just different"
That might be a little off the topic but, when things change humans adapt, it's just what we do, we resist but eventually we must change, change is the only constant.

[xSinner13x]

That's from the old "crossover noise/distortion in transistor amps" thing from ~50 years ago. The earlier solid state amps were easy to distinguish from the tube amps of the day by the high frequency distortion present (assuming one's hearing was sufficiently acute in the higher frequencies). Newer types of devices and different circuit designs fixed that long ago, but the idea keeps getting resurrected from time to time, probably by makers of retro tube amps.

Yeah just go look at the new Roland Blues cube online.
EJ is dyed in the wool Plexi man....



Sorry for steering things OT, BACK TO PICK GUARDS.....

[Wes Brandt]

Yes, but I think that's precisely the point! There is nothing intrinsically "superior" about the sound of tube amps -- it's just that many folks prefer the sounds of their 'softer' nonlinearities when they're overdriven (and it's also what they were used to). But with suitable circuitry, modern transistor-based amps can be constructed that are sonically indistinguishable from tube amps, because they have the same gain and same non-linearities. And with today's digital synthesis capabilities, it's possible to model just about any arbitrary audio response (transfer function) in an audio amp. Each year, there are fewer and fewer "experts" around who claim they can still hear the difference.


As the great physicist Max Planck pointed out, "Science advances, one funeral at a time."

I'm still not sure if you guys are saying a modern transistor amp can do everything a traditional tube amp can do without digital tube modeling circuitry built into it… including compression and "sag" ….or not.

[xSinner13x]

I'm still not sure if you guys are saying a modern transistor amp can do everything a traditional tube amp can do without digital tube modeling circuitry built into it… including compression and "sag" ….or not.

I think that is indeed what I was driving at hence the inclusion of the EJ Video.
Also the other two major producer at the moment make an incredible product as well.
But that's neither here nor there let alone on topic...

[Mark Gunter]

Solid state electronics are far superior to electron tube electronics in practically every way imaginable. People are still free to prefer the sound of one amp over the next, regardless what amps they may be comparing. SS to SS, SS to Tube, Tube to Tube, if you hear what you can't live without in any particular amplifier, buy it and enjoy it.

As the great physicist Max Planck pointed out, "Science advances, one funeral at a time."

So true!

[DavidKOS]

I'm still not sure if you guys are saying a modern transistor amp can do everything a traditional tube amp can do without digital tube modeling circuitry built into it… including compression and "sag" ….or not.

Even when I used tube amps I used amps like a Fender Showman that had SS rectifiers, I cannot play with sag - I want the amp to respond to my playing and not lag behind.

Some of the best modeling amps may well have some sag - like I said, I avoid it so I do not know.

[Wes Brandt]

….I want the amp to respond to my playing and not lag behind.

You just have play a little ahead....

[Wes Brandt]

Solid state electronics are far superior to electron tube electronics in practically every way imaginable. People are still free to prefer the sound of one amp over the next, regardless what amps they may be comparing. SS to SS, SS to Tube, Tube to Tube, if you hear what you can't live without in any particular amplifier, buy it and enjoy it.


So true!

You left out the part about the interpretation of what is "good tube sound", or "style" by the engineers.. which will vary...

I use SS myself, a true stereo keyboard amp and rely on ...multi FX boxes for all modeling, including fake tube sound. I just like arguing.

[Mark Gunter]

You left out the part about the interpretation of what is "good tube sound", or "style" by the engineers.. which will vary...

I use SS myself, a true stereo keyboard amp and rely on ...multi FX boxes for all modeling, including fake tube sound. I just like arguing.

I use a decent programmable modeling amp myself. And I sometimes play the devil's advocate as earlier in this thread - it can be educational, at the risk of having folk confuse you with the devil though.

[HonketyHank]

Amps? What's an amp?

[sblock]

We seem to have wandered well off the topic. The pickguard (or finger-rest) is not in state of "demise," by any stretch of the imagination. It is alive and well, and it works for a great many of us. And it does not detract from the sound of the mandolin.

[Petrus]

In addition to the mini-pickguards shown a few pages ago, if looks are an issue, how about a transparent one? If you feel that sound is an issue, how about one with perforations in it?

[Bertram Henze]

...how about one with perforations in it?

The material exists...

[David Lewis]

What I hear is proof for me. Science proves something today then something different tomorrow so I can do the same thing. Prove the cat is dead today and maybe it's alive tomorrow. All kidding aside how do we really prove the things we have been talking about, a lot of knowledgeable people have stated slightly different proofs. Probably all are correct as for as it goes, but come on we are talking art, how do you prove art.

The cat thinks it's dead.

[Bertram Henze]

...we are talking art, how do you prove art.

Oh brother we're art, though. Love it, don't prove it. See* what I mean: we hear different things.

(*) pun intended

[Mark Gunter]

In addition to the mini-pickguards shown a few pages ago, if looks are an issue, how about a transparent one? If you feel that sound is an issue, how about one with perforations in it?

I think the general consensus is that sound is not an issue with pick guards. At most, the player might detect some small differences in sound, but within a few feet of the instrument it is doubtful any difference will be noted with or without a pick guard. It seems that at some time in the past, it was fashionable to believe that a pick guard might hinder projection, but that apparently was a myth that has, for the most part, been dismissed. At any rate, players are free to make their own choice as to aesthetics and playing style. Some use the extra plate as a finger rest, some don't. Some like the looks of it, some don't.

If you try the rabbit cage wire, be careful not to get your pinkie caught in the perforations.

[sblock]

Markscarts has it right. It is totally unnecessary to develop some type open or perforated pickguard (finger-rest), because, due to its location, size, and physical properties, the existing generation of pickguards is -- for all intents and purposes -- acoustically transparent! Put simply, we do not need to produce perforated pickguards, or ever-smaller ones. If you think an optically clear, acrylic one looks better on your instrument, fine, but this is an aesthetic choice, and has nothing to do with acoustic transparency.

[sunburst]

Put simply, we do not need to produce perforated pickguards, or ever-smaller ones.

So, you're not much into marketing either, I see...

[Mandoplumb]

Oh brother we're art, though. Love it, don't prove it. See* what I mean: we hear different things.

(*) pun intended

I am an artist as are any musician, maybe there is a technical "proof" but in reality that point is mute. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Prove your wife is more beautiful than mine, or maybe vice-versa. LO

[Timbofood]

I had a clear one built for my Stiver, worked very nicely. I wonder how that one has held up, should have kept it! Should have kept them all!