The Art of PICKING

[JimD]

II. And yet, in m. 5 (second part of the theme, first full bar), the F and low B-flat call for something lighter; perhaps the "downstroke on ONE string only", as the modern German school of pick-micromanagement would have called it. Ditto on the respective notes in the next bar.

Good call!

I agree that most of the eighth notes should be down strokes. I am not sure how I feel about the indicated up stroke in bar 7. To me it seems "fussy" at least from a mandolinist's viewpoint. Any thoughts?

I agree that single strokes rather than tremelo should be the norm here.

Regarding the ornaments:

I've been doing a mordant at m.8 as well.

For m.4 I feel that either four or six "noodles" work just fine. (Thanks for the new term, Victor -- I like it.)

[JimD]

Another thought:

Regarding interpretation and the left hand.

In measures 5 and 6, in addition to differentiating the eighth notes by picking (down stroke on one string only), I am allowing the D in m.5 and the E in m. 6 to sustain while playing the other two "less significant" pitches.

This is an option available to us but not to violinists. The indications are tenuto, stacato, staccato (or are they marcato? -- hard to tell)

Anyone else doing anything similar?

[vkioulaphides]

Re: noodles: Well, Jim, you can always count on me for sophisticated musical terminology. I remember calling Vivaldi's habitual down-up-down-up in perpetual sequences "that jolly ruggah-ruggah on and on". So, there's more where that came from!

Re: upbow in m. 7: Bah! Yes, a violinist might/would; I call it "not applicable" to mandolin playing and ignore it summarily. Regular downstroke.

[vkioulaphides]

On sustaining while "filling in" the triad in light downstrokes: I don't know, Jim... I personally would not alter the composer's 8th-note to a full, dotted quarter; that goes a split hair beyond my comfort-zone in reading Tartini's text. I just make the D a full 8th, the others shorter.

Your idea, of course, makes perfect musical sense and, say, if orchestrating this for an ensemble, I would do exactly as you describe; but that goes a bit deeper into creative treatment of a score, as opposed to the performer's usual, REcreative approach. YMMV.

[MandoJon]

Reading should not hamper you. We are not working this up for performance, so your own speed, your own comfort, and your own abilities are sufficient to participate in the learning experience.

I'm sure you said that somewhere before. OK I'm encouraged to give it a try, especially as there's a few of us (and now I know which direction to use my bow! Didn't one of the guys in Led Zep bow his electric guitar? Have we discovered a whole new madnolin technique?)

I will be a week or two behind you guys though because I sold my cheap mando (which I'd had about 10 years) thinking my new one would be ready by Christmas (all timed so there would be a decent overlap between acquiring the new one and parting with the old). I'm still waiting and have been told Tuesday

On a more relevant note: I got as far as reading the "Explanation of Signs" section and came up short when I got to signs for "Whole bow" or "lower half" etc. I'm not sure when we first get to one of these so perhaps I shouldn't worry, but does the portion of the bow used affect the tone (if so we could experiment with the angle of attack of the pick on the strings or summat) or is it more to do with which bit of the bow it is more convenient to play with (in which case we might ignore these marks altogether). Thoughts?

[vkioulaphides]

Amount of bow used is, of course, of crucial importance to the playing of bowed instruments. The priorities involved are both —and primarily— artistic and mechanical, catering to convenience. But that is a whoooooooooole other, ENORMOUS subject, far beyond the scope of this thread.

To tell you the truth, I have not (yet) thought of correlations between "full bow", "upper half", etc. and picking. Besides, all said indications are editorial, i.e. stem from Mr. Icking's judgment and not from Tartini himself. So, at the very least, I pay very, very little heed to them, if at all.

[JimD]

Amount of bow used is, of course, of crucial importance to the playing of bowed instruments. The priorities involved are both —and primarily— artistic and mechanical, catering to convenience. But that is a whoooooooooole other, ENORMOUS subject, far beyond the scope of this thread.

Aren't you glad we don't have to deal with "amount of pick"...

[vkioulaphides]

Shhhhhhhhhh... Don't tell Dr. Wilden-Hüsgen; she is sure to come up with some notation for THAT, too!

[vkioulaphides]

OK, folks, with the 3-day weekend ahead of us... onward to Variation I! Having arrived by consensus to a recommendation of simple, 3-note mordents for Tartini's "trills" on short-ish notes (e.g. 16th-notes, such as in m. 8), we forge fearlessly forwards— or some other, goofy alliteration like that.

Quite realistically, with this kind of ornament happening, oh... a million times or so in the following variations, I see ever so much more reason for sticking to modest mordents and forgoing treacherous trills.

[John Bertotti]

It would be great to hear mp3 of the variations played as you all go. I don't know if it is possible but it would be great. MP3 for each variation know that would be worth saving along with the progress of this thread. John

[Jim Garber]

It would be great to hear mp3 of the variations played as you all go.

It is funny John, but I was going to attempt it of the theme (since it is relatively easy, but I couldn;t get my computer to record properly., Maybe later.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Jim In the famous words of two well known musicians, (Bill and Ted),
MOST EXCELLENT!. Thanks John

[vkioulaphides]

... continued from the last episode:

Week #2 (Variation 1):

Having settled on simple, 3-note mordents for trills on 16th-notes (in the appoximate manner of a triplet) we proceed merrily. At the end of m. 2 (of this variation), said ornament is spelled out; I play this the same as all the respective, similar spots notated with the usual mordent "squiggle". I start the triplet-ish mordent on an upstroke (up-down-up), then the two, "written out" 16ths down-up. That way I land on my feet, coming out of the 5-note figure.

In m. 4. three grace-notes are already spelled out; that only leaves me time for 4 noodles on the trill, not 6 as in m. 4 of the theme (see above). Anything more than that sounds too cluttered and, quite frankly, is above my meager abilities and poor coordination.

In m. 3, I shift to second position, index on the final C, which lays out the entire next bar in position (from the F on, everything on the A-course).

Same principle in m. 6: I shift to third position, index on the D on the second beat. That way, all the following, up to the open E in the next measure, is in position, across the A- and E-course.

In m. 5, however, I only go up to second, not third position (as per Herr Icking): middle finger on the first D of the bar, not index. Minor matter, of course...

All this, of course, is still a "work in progress". Week #2 is just beginning...

What are you doing for m. 7? My first impression/intention for the trill, followed by double grace-note is to do is as a gruppetto, a turn comprised of a triplet mordent plus the two grace-notes. Dunno...

Also, in m. 7: Do you shift up the A-course to the F (last note), as suggested by Icking? Or do you go across the E-course, saving the shift for the more dramatic interval, up to the high D in m. 8?

[John Zimm]

What are you doing for m. 7? My first impression/intention for the trill, followed by double grace-note is to do is as a gruppetto, a turn comprised of a triplet mordent plus the two grace-notes. Dunno...

Also, in m. 7: Do you shift up the A-course to the F (last note), as suggested by Icking? Or do you go across the E-course, saving the shift for the more dramatic interval, up to the high D in m. 8?

In measure 7, I have not been going to the 7th fret on the A course. I just find it easier to play on the E course. I should try the A course route, but right now I am just trying to play this variation and make it sound like music.

I have been having troubles getting all of the ornaments in, so what I have done (starting yesterday) is play the variation without any of the ornaments at all. Once I have it down reasonably well (hopefully tonight), I will move on to the ornaments. It looks like there is a logical pattern to the ornaments. Hopefully they will make sense once I have the basic melody down.

It's funny-I was tempted to quit after looking at this variation, but I have to think that learning something so difficult (for me anyway, poor musician that I am right now) can only lead to some encouraging progress with a little patience.

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

John, I admire and wholeheartedly agree with your practice ethic: yes, if one can manage something as intricate as this, then a lot of other music seems quite accessible in hindsight.

And, also yes: I, too, play these for a few days without any of the ornaments. Then, I decide on what is reasonable, effective, and musical: what ornaments can fit in the given duration of time, which sound best, which seem to be in the style of the composition.

As for the shift in m.7, it is Mr. Icking's suggestion that one go up to the 8th fret, F on the A-course. And you, like me, are perhaps more inclined to cross over to the E-course for the F, then shift up "dramatically" by a 6th, up to the high D.

Mr. Icking's fingering is quite "violinistic", I must admit. Then again, this thread is titled "The Art of Picking", not "The Art of Icking".

Let each one do as his/her best musical judgment dictates.

[John Zimm]

John, I admire and wholeheartedly agree with your practice ethic: yes, if one can manage something as intricate as this, then a lot of other music seems quite accessible in hindsight.

And, also yes: I, too, play these for a few days without any of the ornaments. Then, I decide on what is reasonable, effective, and musical: what ornaments can fit in the given duration of time, which sound best, which seem to be in the style of the composition.

As for the shift in m.7, it is Mr. Icking's suggestion that one go up to the 8th fret, F on the A-course. And you, like me, are perhaps more inclined to cross over to the E-course for the F, then shift up "dramatically" by a 6th, up to the high D.

Mr. Icking's fingering is quite "violinistic", I must admit. Then again, this thread is titled "The Art of Picking", not "The Art of Icking". #

Let each one do as his/her best musical judgment dictates.

Oop, right you are-it is the 8th fret and not the 7th. I guess it is doubly good that I have not been playing it that way, eh?

"The Art of Picking", not "The Art of Icking"-that is funny. Thanks again for a laugh.


-John.

[John Zimm]

I thought I would report on my progress with variation 1 so far.

In the beginning it was very difficult. I played only the theme for a couple of days. Last night, I started to play the ornaments and found that there was such a predictable order to them, that since I had the basic melody down the variations were not a mental workout to play. My fingers on the other hand couldn't seem to execute the trills as fully as I would like, so they have been reduced to mordents.

All in all, I think I've come a long way from the first time I looked at variation 1 and wondered how anyone could play it.

-John.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"... reduced to mordents."

Haven't we ALL?!?

Yes, John, you have the right idea—#or, at the very least, you and I are wrong together!

I try to think of the underlying, basic theme, then do whatever ornaments I can fit in. And yes, mordents are the melodic morsels of choice.

[John Bertotti]

I am following you all closely but much is whooshing over my head. One question. What is a Mordent? Thanks John

[vkioulaphides]

Mordent: from the Latin mordere = to bite. A short, clipped, "biting" ornament, consisting of the principal (i.e printed) note, the note a step above it (or below it, in the case of inverted mordents), and again the principal note. Thus: low-high-low, e.g. A-B-A.

So, then... on to Week #3 (Variation 2):

Again, mordents to the rescue! The point is that the recurrent, printed ornament consists of a trill PLUS two grace-notes, leading to the next note; even if the trill, however, is a single mordent, the complete ornament adds up to a full turn, a gruppetto, a 5-note embellishment.

Well, dear friends... I can't do it! To be more precise: Yes, I could do it, I could cram it all in, but in some hypothetical, ridiculously slow tempo. And, after all, the underlying harmonic rhythm does mandate that we stay at around M.M.= 50-something.

So, here is my hack solution: I... *guilt-ridden gulp* shamelessly disregard the printed grace-notes. Then, doing a single mordent on every note marked with a trill, I can play this fluently, and at a musically reasonable tempo.

In other words, I have —disreputably enough— reduced Tartini's 5-note ornaments into 3-note ornaments. Obviously, if anyone here can keep the tempo flowing, AND do Tartini's ornaments as he intended them, well... (s)he is plainly a better mandolinist than I, a conclusion I am perfectly glad to accept.

[JimD]

So, after a week of spotty practicing due to the start of a new semester, I am finally back to my mandolin for a substantial amount of time due to the blizzard. We had about 28 inches in about 18 hours -- thereby increasing my available "free" time. Classes have already been cancelled for tomorrow -- so I'll have even more time --in between snow removal, that is...

Anyway, I agree with most of the comments and approaches to variation 1.

Regarding variation #2:

I can't do the 5-note ornament either -- if I pick each note of the ornament.

Consider this though:

If we look at the phrasing and dynamics a less conventional approach presents itself. (at least to me...)

--the second through fifth 16th notes are indicated piano (after an 8th and a 16th sforzando)

--also, the third and fifth 16ths are accented and slurred to the following (inclusive of the ornament)

If we take a "guitarists approach" to this we can play the ornament --all five notes-- "left hand only" and remain in the spirit of the phrasing.

So, to recap (in grueling detail) from the pickup note:

pickup -- downstroke, sforzando

First 16th -- downstroke, sforzando

second 16th -- upstroke, piano

third 16th --downstroke

ornament -- "hammer on" C, "pulloff" to B then A, hammer on B and C

repeat last 2 steps

then, sforzando, downstroke for the 8th note

etc.

This is not a normal mandolinistic approach but this isn't a mandolin piece either. I like this approach because I can get the spirit of the phrasing much more closely than I could with the pick and do it up to tempo.

As an aside, I intend to practice it very slowly picking each note of the ornament and see what results in the long term. I am pretty sure that the left hand ornament will be more effective.

Any thoughts or disagreements?

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, "left hand only" is definitely a valid solution. I did try that, too—#and liked it, as JimD did. It is, of course, (as JimD writes) not a typical technique in the arsenal of the classical mandolin; but, again, neither is the piece.

Also, yes: The dynamics are very user-friendly in this respect: the ornaments (whatever those might be) being soft, the hammer-on / pull-off does generate sufficient sonority, also considering the brevity of time involved.

So, JimD and I are on the same page, with the only difference that I have been picking each micro-note within the mordents— with some effort, I might add. Left-hand-only mordents would lighten this up a bit... I will spend the next day or two hammering and pulling.

[Jim Garber]

Sorry to be out of pocket on this project. Lots of family duties got in the way of coming near my mandolin in the last week or two. Now work (ugh!) gets in the way and I have to catch up there also.

I hope to catch up to you folks soon. Don't leave me too far behind!

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

You are hardly at risk of being left "too far behind", Jim. #

The thing I find particularly encouraging is that we are coming to some sort of concensus, such as on mordents instead of "notey-er" ornaments. This "collective resolution", in turn, is finding multiple applications in similar situations from one variation to the next and beyond.

So, fear not. (Well, both family and work are frightful prospects at times— at least, have no fear of Tartini!) #

[John Zimm]

The thing I find particularly encouraging is that we are coming to some sort of concensus, such as on mordents instead of "notey-er" ornaments. This "collective resolution", in turn, is finding multiple applications in similar situations from one variation to the next and beyond.

I don't play the violin, but I wonder if the more complicated ornaments are just more feasible on a bowed instrument. If we resolve to pick each note of an ornament, it would be difficult to execute in time. If we slur the ornaments (or should I say, when I slur the ornaments) it is difficult to sustain much volume for very long. Ergo, the mordent becomes highly desirable, even if it is not technically true to the score.

Anyway, I better go practice...

-John.