K&K Pickups

[Ed Fowler]

I'm looking at the K&K pups listed on Elderly for my TC Bouzouki. Does anyone know the difference between the Twin Fusion Mandolin pickup and the Twin Spot Internal, besides price?

[pickngrin]

Specifically, the Twin Fusion has an external carpenter jack, while the Twin Spot has an internal endpin jack. The Mandolin Twin and the Twin Fusion Mandolin have larger pads on the piezo element than the Twin Spot. The luthier I talked to when I got the Mando Twin installed said in general the larger pads have a broader frequency response, at the cost of being a harsh pickup if glued directly to the soundboard. As a result, she installed it with foam sticky pads, which knocked back the harshness. I run mine through a 9-band EQ and really notch back the top end and it sounds amazing.

[CelticDude]

The luthier I talked to when I got the Mando Twin installed said in general the larger pads have a broader frequency response, at the cost of being a harsh pickup if glued directly to the soundboard. As a result, she installed it with foam sticky pads, which knocked back the harshness. I run mine through a 9-band EQ and really notch back the top end and it sounds amazing.

K&K is now recommending using two layers of the double-sided tape, for just this reason. I did this with mine, and it sounds really nice. I bought the Mandolin Twin Internal, but used a Tapastrings endpin to avoid drilling my mandolin. This combination works well, and was fairly easy, although it took 2 tries to fit the endpin (probably best to just send the endpin so they can match it.)

[mandobouy]

a comment from my use of the pickups:

i have the K&K pickups in an '37 epi spartan archtop (walnut, whatta vibrant instrument!) and in a fine custom, small builder mando. epi has them glued in, mando w/ 1 piece of stick tape.

what i find amazing about them is that they have enough output to play w/o a DI or pre box. i choose to run them both through a baggs para DI to shape it a tad. however, on both of them, i dial back the treble and presence from 12 oclock to 11 oclock, maybe 1030 on the mando, because the stock top end sound is too brassy or edgy (at least to me). final result is a fine sound. w/ the mando direct into a fishman column w/o the baggs, i use the channel treble to smooth it out. that is a good combo for the mando.

seems that the high end is the common character of attention, regardless of which model.

[Tavy]

Being a cheap-scape I always use the regular twin spots and super glue them in place. For me they sound deadened if you use the tape, still good, just not as good as with super glue. Compare the acoustic and plugged in recordings in this thread for an idea of how they sound.

[Mandobart]

At the risk of being repetitive and redundant, I'll plug the good old JJB pickups that I've used in most of my instruments (2 OM's, 2 fiddles, 1 mandocello, 1 mandola, 1 mandolin and 1 12 string). I put a K&K in my first mando because I didn't know about JJB. K&K p'ups are fine. Work great in my old mando. However, the JJB are just as good, sound as good, install just as easy. The only difference is spending ~ $20 US each vs over $100 each. That makes a difference when you install in as many instruments as I have. They come with a standard 1/4" jack which doesn't work in every application, so you may need to spend ~ $20 more for a switchcraft type jack or other.

As far as mounting them, I've always used blue tack. Totally non-marring, re-usable, movable and removable to allow me to set it in just the right spot, or remove completely if I ever want to de-electrify or change to a different pickup. This also provides some of the dampening alluded to with use of foam tape. Never had it come loose in the 3+ years I've had these installed.

[mandotar]

I've had the Twin Fusion for a couple of weeks along with the K&K preamp. To me it sounds much better than the Schertler Dyn-M and the Baggs Radius, both of which I own. I roll the mids and highs way off and the bass up a bit. Still doesn't sound as good as a mic but is a lot less hassle in noisy environments.

[Mike Bunting]

I use a Headway EDB-1 with it and the parametric eq really goes a long way in cleaning esp. that piezo thump.

[CelticDude]

I use a Headway EDB-1 with it and the parametric eq really goes a long way in cleaning esp. that piezo thump.

Hello Mike,

Tell me about the piezo thump. I'd heard that under-saddle pickups on guitars have a "quack", but never anything about mando p'ups. Yet, while recording over the weekend I did notice a bit more pick sound than usual. Is this what you mean?

[Mike Bunting]

Hello Mike,

Tell me about the piezo thump. I'd heard that under-saddle pickups on guitars have a "quack", but never anything about mando p'ups. Yet, while recording over the weekend I did notice a bit more pick sound than usual. Is this what you mean?

Yes, that's basically it, I find coming from the low-mid range mostly and my word for it is "thump". The EDB-1 is a pre-amp with good eq and the pr-amp seems to help fight the piezo "quack" a lot.
'

[Trent Crawford]

As far as mounting them, I've always used blue tack

I like the idea of this.

I am about to mount my first K&K and will do this for sure. The idea of being able to try different areas to find the sweet spot appeals to me.

I did try a Schertler and am now thinking some of their "Green Goo" would be great for said application if it can be accessed.

T.

[McIrish]

This is an interesting discussion. I have K&K Twin Spots in a mandolin, mandola, bouzouki and a guitar. Everyone here is saying they have a lot of treble and are harsh. I have the exact opposite experience. I use a pure preamp and have to roll off the low end on every one of the instruments. Maybe its how they are mounted. Mine are all glued to the soundboard, under the bridge. The guitar has three pickups, mounted how they suggest. I find the sound to be very good when compared to a Fishman bridge pickup. A mic is still better, but this is way easier to control. Maybe everyone is getting too much treble because the pickups are not glued?

[Mandobart]

Typically, its the nature of piezo p'ups to be more trebly. This is part due to the nature of piezoelectric phenomena, and also due to the frequent impedance mis-match between the piezo output and what you're plugging into. That's why there are at least as many threads here on pre-amps as there are threads on pickups. I have found that when plugging straight into the house PA at some venues, the sound is harsh and tinny. I now also use the K&K Pure pre-amp (after trying a few others first) and find it does a great job, both because it matches the high impedance requirements of the p'up and because of the on-board eq. Some folks say "the great thing about the K&K is that it doesn't even need a pre-amp." Not really true. If you're plugging into a board or amp set up for the high Z output of the piezo, you are using a pre-amp; just not one you can see.

[Mike Bunting]

I am very pleased with this, recommended to me by a fellow listmember. I quite agree that preamps are necessary and ones like the Headway really do a lot besides matching the impedance.
http://www.headwaymusicaudio.com/pro...tic_preamp.php

[mandotar]

I'm using the K&K Pure pre-amp and roll the highs and mids way off and kick up the bass. Haven't really tried going straight into the board but I like having the EQ control at my fingertips.

[Tavy]

I have K&K's in 3 instruments - all get plugged straight into the PA - and generally they sound very good with a flat EQ, if anything slightly heavy on the bass/mids. I've never needed a preamp with these (though I have one), and I always super glue them in place for optimal sound and output level. This is with the regular K&K twin spots, can't comment on whether the "special" mandolin version has a higher high frequency response.

On the other hand, every other piezo I've used (mostly undersaddle types, but also a combined floating-bridge-pickup from Shadow) definitely has required a preamp - without it the impedance mismatch results in a hopelessly shrill tone that just leaves me wincing.

Re: blue tack mounting - sorry but I find it hard to believe you can get much sound quality that way - I've always used the K&K ultra-thin special mounting tape for temp fixing while finding the correct spot, and as well as a greatly reduced output, the sound quality is distinctly muffled compared to a super glue fix. I once used slightly thicker "toupee tape" for temp mounting as it's easier to remove and reposition, but then the sound was really awful: very muffled. Seriously, glue them in with CA gel, you won't regret it.

[Shelagh Moore]

My experience when I have fitted them is the same as Tavy's and McIrish's... they have tended to be very slightly heavy on the bass but nothing that can't be levelled out satisfactorily with basic EQ. Like Tavy I tend to use the basic twin spots and cost vs performance-wise they compare well with other pickups. Plus they work well without a preamp too.

[Ed Fowler]

Thanks for all the thoughts everyone. I've just ordered the internal Twin Spots from Elderly. Looking forward to giving them try.

[Avi Ziv]

Just ordered the Twin Spot Internal to install in my mandolin. I'm planning on doing the installation myself. In the meantime - researching preamp/DI options. I much prefer the sound with a mic but sometimes I need to quickly plug in to an existing setup with minimal feedback problems.

[Austin Bob]

Just ordered the Twin Spot Internal to install in my mandolin. I'm planning on doing the installation myself. In the meantime - researching preamp/DI options. I much prefer the sound with a mic but sometimes I need to quickly plug in to an existing setup with minimal feedback problems.

That's the same pickup I have, and for the same reason. Sometimes you just want to plug in and start flailing away without worrying about a mic.

I had mine installed and the luthier had a couple of preamps to try. The Fishman & LR Baggs belt clip had a lot of adjustment, but most of it wasn't in a usable range. I ended up keeping the little belt mounted preamp I bought from Pickuptheworld that i got for my previous pickup. So I guess I saying is that most any preamp should work ok. I'm looking at the LR Baggs floor model, with the built in tuner. It's built like a tank, but it's not cheap either.

[Mike Bunting]

Just ordered the Twin Spot Internal to install in my mandolin. I'm planning on doing the installation myself. In the meantime - researching preamp/DI options. I much prefer the sound with a mic but sometimes I need to quickly plug in to an existing setup with minimal feedback problems.

See post 14

[Avi Ziv]

See post 14

Thanks Mike. I did see your post and I had heard some positive comments about it elsewhere. Functionality looks impressive on paper. However I was discouraged to find this review on one of my web searches. Maybe this was a lemon or and early model or an overly critical owner but it made me think. Could you expand on your experience with the preamp in some detail?

I'm also considering the Orchid preamp, and the Radial Tonebone PZ-Pre and continuing to search.

Cheers

[Don Grieser]

If you want to hear a recording of a K&K through a Tonebone PZ-Pre, check out http://thebillyhawks.bandcamp.com

The signal chain is K&K to Tonebone to Mackie 1604VLZ mixer to Presonus 1818VLS to iPad running Auria. Mixed in Logic Express.

The Tonebone is built like a tank, is dead quiet, and really makes a pickup sounds good.

[Avi Ziv]

Sounds very good, Don. Thanks so much for the sound examples! Do you make any use of the two channels in any way? What made you choose this over other pre's?

The two things that are making me hesitate to get this pre are: 1) the single eq because I may want to plug two instruments. In that case, I may need to use an external eq through the fx insert. That is - if I feel that different eq settings are needed for the two channels. and 2) the need for an external power source - just a pain, I think. Would be more convenient if it had the option at least of using phantom power to supply the unit. I am familiar with Radial gear and they are truly pro and road worthy so I'm very comfortable with the durability and quality aspects.

Cheers,

[Don Grieser]

Avi, I don't use both channels. I chose it because of Radial's reputation for pro gear and from recommendations from users on the cafe board. Regarding your other concerns, I find I need very minor adjustments on the EQ and I bought a 10' extension cord. Power's never been a problem. I'm not a fan of wall warts, but Radial said they chose a common one that you can find at an electronics store if you want to have a spare.