Finding chord shapes in same area of fretboard

[joni24]

I'm trying to learn some closed position chord shapes for basic progressions such as I-IV-V and III-VI-II-V where your hand doesn't have to jump around a lot on the fretboard. For example, through trial and error I stumbled upon this I-IV-V progression in the key of E where your 1st finger stays around the 4th fret: 4-6-7-x, 6-7-7-x, 4-4-6-7 for the E, A and B chords, respectively. Does anyone know of a source where this kind of information may already be spelled out? Thanks!

[Rob Beck]

Have you tried the FFcP approach on the JazzMando site?

[Phil Goodson]

Joni,

Just consider the GENERAL rule that you can take ANY 4 finger chord and move the entire shape bassward by one string to go to the 4 chord, or trebleward (is that a word?) by one string to get to the 5 chord.

For your E example above, I tend to like 9-6-7-0 for the E, 6-7-0-0 or 6770 FOR THE A, AND 899x or 11-9-6-7 for the B. (this particular key example allows open strings, but the principle holds for other keys.)

[joni24]

Have you tried the FFcP approach on the JazzMando site?

I actually have Ted's Getting into Jazz Mandolin book but am still working on the first set of FFcP scale exercises in all 4 positions. (Good stuff, it's helped me already in being able to take simple breaks in difficult keys...) Looking ahead in the book I haven't been able to find the simple chord change progressions I'm looking for at this point, but they may very well be hiding somewhere in the material. What I've found encorporates lots of 7ths, 9ths, flat 5's etc in the chord shapes.

[joni24]

Joni,

Just consider the GENERAL rule that you can take ANY 4 finger chord and move the entire shape bassward by one string to go to the 4 chord, or trebleward (is that a word?) by one string to get to the 5 chord.

For your E example above, I tend to like 9-6-7-0 for the E, 6-7-0-0 or 6770 FOR THE A, AND 899x or 11-9-6-7 for the B. (this particular key example allows open strings, but the principle holds for other keys.)

Yes, your E example is exactly what I'm looking for (starting with that particular chord shape)! Your GENERAL rule makes a lot of sense, I never thought of the chord relationships that way. Let's try a different case now, say in the key of B where the B chord is made 4-4-6-7. The easiest E (IV) chord going along with that would be 4-6-7-x, but what would be the best F# (V) chord?

[SincereCorgi]

Hi Joni- what worked for me was a multi-step process:

1) learn a closed major chord and all its 3-string inversions, and be particular about which note (1st, 3rd, 5th) is in its bass and (because it ends up being more useful) what note is at the top of the stack, too

2) practice your inversions thoroughly up and down the first octave of fretboard, building it both the bottom three and top three strings

3) learn to do the same thing with all 12 major chords; it will be much easier if you've learned that first chord very thoroughly and the inversions are automatic

4) now, pick a progression, like I-V-I at first, and practice doing it with all three chord inversions as I and, naturally, the most convenient V. Once you can do this all over the neck and in all keys, expand it to I-IV-V-I, etc

...then go back and learn how to alter all your chords to make minors, and then you can start doing progressions with a more interesting chord mixture like I-vi-ii-V-I. Then add dominant 7th chords, then maybe 145 suspensions or diminished chords, etc. the Mike Marshall chord DVD is a great foundation for this, and I've heard the Hokannen chord booklet is supposed to have a good explanation, too.

[Beanzy]

The easiest E (IV) chord going along with that would be 4-6-7-x, but what would be the best F# (V) chord?

2 frets up the neck from the E will be F# simple slide.

[Mandobart]

For example, through trial and error I stumbled upon this I-IV-V progression in the key of E where your 1st finger stays around the 4th fret: 4-6-7-x, 6-7-7-x, 4-4-6-7 for the E, A and B chords, respectively. Does anyone know of a source where this kind of information may already be spelled out? Thanks!

Don't know of a written source, but these are shapes I use frequently, especially on the OM and mandocello where these shapes help on the longer scale, and barres are easier to do on the wider fingerboard. I do them a little different by using the barre with my index finger laying flat; every 4 fret is the index finger. The 6 fret is my ring finger and 7th is the pinkie. Where used, the 5th fret is played with the middle finger. So E is 4-6-7-4, A is 6-7-4-5 and B is 4-4-6-7. These are very versatile shapes. In these chord shapes, the pinky is always the root. A 7th chord can be played in any of these shapes by lifting the pinky and placing the middle finger down two frets below. Similarly, the minor form is done by lifting the ring finger (which is the 3rd of the chord triad) and placing the middle finger 1 fret below (this flats the 3rd, making the major chord into a minor chord). You'll notice that in this example it sounds fine on the Bm chord (4-4-5-7), but on the E and A (if you want to play all 4 courses) you need to make some changes. One way is to flatten the pinky across the higher string 7th fret. So Em is 4-5-7-7. I play Am in this shape as 5-7-7-8 and move the index barre up from the 4th to 5th fret. Keeping with the original shape and not moving the left hand up nor down though, I would omit the E string and play it as 5-7-7-x.

Another useful moveable shape is a Bb in the first position 3-3-1-1, C as 5-5-3-3, etc. A couple neat things about this shape are: The root is the lowest note played, like typical guitar chords. It consists of two pairs of notes, spaced an octave apart, the 1st and the 5th of the triad; that is the C example is actually played C-G-C-G. Cool droning sound. Lastly, because the 3rd of the triad is not played, this becomes a power chord, and can be used as a major or minor depending on the musical context. A form of this many of us play without realizing it is A as 2-2-0-0.

Another good moveable shape is E played as 4-2-2-4, noted B-E-B-G#. This has all three notes of the triad, and is an easy switch between the chord described above as Bb. So in the key of E, the I is played 4-2-2-4, the IV (A) is 1-1-4-5 and the V (B) is 4-4-2-2. I, IV, V all without moving the index finger off the 2nd fret. Like the first example this one also works all the way up the neck.

[Phil Goodson]

Joni,

Is your head spinning yet?
That's why I gave a General rule and one example. So you could work it out in simple fashion.

If you're just playing along with people and not getting too complicated and you're just starting to learn this stuff, you don't need to spend hours of time practicing 45 inversions of C#. Just find a couple shapes for each chord and you'll find that a usable chord is seldom far from where you are.

Most of all, have fun, and expect things to get easier and even more fun as you go.

[JonZ]

Two resources to consider are Mike Marshall's "The Chord Book", and the PDF available on Pete Martins website. I don't know how directly they answer your questions, but they do address how "real musicians" voice their chords.

[mandocrucian]

You may find this helpful: Niles Hokkanen's Guide To Mandolin Chords

[joni24]

Wow, folks, thanks for all the good ideas and suggestions! I have to admit that I'm somewhat of a music theory nut, so while my head is in a spin from all this information, it's just what I've been looking for. I find that I can learn and retain faster when I understand the big picture as well as the foundation upon which the information is based. So my next step is to try and digest some of the ideas above to see what works best. You guys (and gals) are awesome!

[BMilam]

You might want to check out http://fretboard-toolbox.com/ as well. They have some pretty nifty printed books (and PDFs). I have no financial interest in their products, just passing along the info.

Sort of a strange first post for me, but what the heck!

[joni24]

Don't know of a written source, but these are shapes I use frequently, especially on the OM and mandocello where these shapes help on the longer scale, and barres are easier to do on the wider fingerboard. I do them a little different by using the barre with my index finger laying flat; every 4 fret is the index finger. The 6 fret is my ring finger and 7th is the pinkie. Where used, the 5th fret is played with the middle finger. So E is 4-6-7-4, A is 6-7-4-5 and B is 4-4-6-7. These are very versatile shapes. In these chord shapes, the pinky is always the root. A 7th chord can be played in any of these shapes by lifting the pinky and placing the middle finger down two frets below. Similarly, the minor form is done by lifting the ring finger (which is the 3rd of the chord triad) and placing the middle finger 1 fret below (this flats the 3rd, making the major chord into a minor chord). You'll notice that in this example it sounds fine on the Bm chord (4-4-5-7), but on the E and A (if you want to play all 4 courses) you need to make some changes. One way is to flatten the pinky across the higher string 7th fret. So Em is 4-5-7-7. I play Am in this shape as 5-7-7-8 and move the index barre up from the 4th to 5th fret. Keeping with the original shape and not moving the left hand up nor down though, I would omit the E string and play it as 5-7-7-x.

This really makes sense and I love the fact that you can easily and consistently switch to the minor or 7th by switching one finger. Am having a problem making the barre but am happy just using 3 courses and leaving out the E-string.

Another useful moveable shape is a Bb in the first position 3-3-1-1, C as 5-5-3-3, etc. A couple neat things about this shape are: The root is the lowest note played, like typical guitar chords. It consists of two pairs of notes, spaced an octave apart, the 1st and the 5th of the triad; that is the C example is actually played C-G-C-G. Cool droning sound. Lastly, because the 3rd of the triad is not played, this becomes a power chord, and can be used as a major or minor depending on the musical context. A form of this many of us play without realizing it is A as 2-2-0-0.

Another good moveable shape is E played as 4-2-2-4, noted B-E-B-G#. This has all three notes of the triad, and is an easy switch between the chord described above as Bb. So in the key of E, the I is played 4-2-2-4, the IV (A) is 1-1-4-5 and the V (B) is 4-4-2-2. I, IV, V all without moving the index finger off the 2nd fret. Like the first example this one also works all the way up the neck.

Am having a problem getting each individual note to ring clearly when making the barre chords: 4-2-2-4 and 4-4-2-2. What fingering are you using for the other 2 strings for each of these? Would love to be able to add them to my growing arsenal of go-to chords.

One more question for all: What are your preferred ways to make closed position chords in a progression such as vi-ii-V-I?

[Phil Goodson]

Joni,

Since you mention that you're a music theory nut, you should also check out pickloser's blog that has a great explanation of how to use doublestops. This will give you another way to get the fretboard map solidly into your brain and adding practical info that will help your playing. Here's the link.

[Phil Goodson]

...
One more question for all: What are your preferred ways to make closed position chords in a progression such as vi-ii-V-I?

Honestly, I usually just use the 3 or 4 finger bluegrass chop chord shapes for most of these type progressions.

[Phil Vinyard]

You might try these (attached). I give this chord chart to my mandolin and jam class students. These chords all stay pretty close together, and can easily go up the neck or over a string to cover more territory.

I've posted this before, but this version has some minor changes based on feedback from Cafe members.

[joni24]

You might try these (attached). I give this chord chart to my mandolin and jam class students. These chords all stay pretty close together, and can easily go up the neck or over a string to cover more territory.

Hey Phil, I do remember seeing this chart back when you first posted it on MC. At that time I wasn't far enough along to be thinking about quick chord changes and portability but now it really fits in. With the exception of the Em, all the other chords on your chart are moveable and the layout is very much what I was looking for. Now I'd like to add the ii and iii chords to it and I believe my initial query will be answered. Thanks!

[John Gardinsky]

Yes, your E example is exactly what I'm looking for (starting with that particular chord shape)! Your GENERAL rule makes a lot of sense, I never thought of the chord relationships that way. Let's try a different case now, say in the key of B where the B chord is made 4-4-6-7. The easiest E (IV) chord going along with that would be 4-6-7-x, but what would be the best F# (V) chord?

If you are not fond of 6-4-4-6 for F# then you might try 6-4-7-6 which is F#7. It functions as the V7 in your Key of B example.

[JeffD]

I personally don't do many barre chords. I do a lot of chords that could be barred, but I do a finger for each note. I find that to do a barre chord puts my hand at an angle that I have to recover from when I go on to something else. The thumb seems to want to be more towards the center line of the neck, or something like that. Unless I played all barre chords, (which I have tried) its awkward to change keep changing back and forth.

Everyone is different and many folks use them to good effect.

[Mandobart]

Am having a problem getting each individual note to ring clearly when making the barre chords: 4-2-2-4 and 4-4-2-2. What fingering are you using for the other 2 strings for each of these? Would love to be able to add them to my growing arsenal of go-to chords.

Joni - Not sure what you mean by "the other 2 strings." Do you mean the courses not being barred? I play 4-2-2-4 with ring (on the G course)-index (on the D course)-index (on the A course)-pinky (on the E course). ring-index-middle-pinky also works (no barre). I admit it is easier to get a clean sound by placing the index just across the D and A strings rather than across the whole fretboard like a standard barre. I finger 4-4-2-2 as ring-pinky-index-index. Again it may be easier to get a clean sound by just placing the index across the A and E courses and not barre completely across the fretboard.

[Mandobart]

One more question for all: What are your preferred ways to make closed position chords in a progression such as vi-ii-V-I?

So this doesn't directly answer your question, as I sometimes/often use a combo of open and closed chord shapes. Example, in the key of C, vi-ii-V-I is Am, Dm, G, C. Am = 5-7-7-8. Dm is 7-7-8-10 (or x-0-8-10). G is 7-5-5-7 (or 0-5-5-7). C is 5-5-7-8.

[joni24]

OK, based upon everyone's feedback above plus a little more noodling on my own, I think I've started to unlock what I'm looking for. My goal is to start with various chord shapes as the root and find the commonly used chords (IV, V, vi, ii) that can be used with minimum jumping around on the fretboard. (I'm ignoring open strings for this exercise, since my goal in this effort is to be able to have portable progressions that I can use when my friends want to sing in their favorite keys such as F#, C#, etc.) Here's what I have so far for the 3 chord shapes that I use most often:

Sample key of E: I - IV - vi - ii - V is E, A, C#m, F#m, B
Chord shapes: 4-6-7-x, 6-7-7-x, 6-6-7-9, 6-7-9-x, 4-4-6-7

Sample key of C: I - IV - vi - ii - V is C, F, Am, Dm, G
Chord shapes (using closed positions): 5-5-7-8, 5-7-8-x, 5-7-7-8, 7-7-8-10, 7-9-10-x

Sample key of F#: I - IV - vi - ii - V is F#, B, D#m, G#m, C#
Chord shapes: 3-4-4-x, 4-4-6-x, 3-4-6-6, 4-6-6-7, 6-3-4-x

My goal is to get familiar enough with these various shapes and relative positions that I don''t need to stop and think what the chord name is in the middle of a song. Make sense to anyone?

[Champ49]

You might try these (attached). I give this chord chart to my mandolin and jam class students. These chords all stay pretty close together, and can easily go up the neck or over a string to cover more territory.

I've posted this before, but this version has some minor changes based on feedback from Cafe members.

Phil, have been trying to find the chord chard for Tenor Guitar, and found your nifty chart for Mandolin. You wouldn't have one for Tenor, would you? That would be GDBE. Thanks, Champ49

[Phil Vinyard]

Phil, have been trying to find the chord chard for Tenor Guitar, and found your nifty chart for Mandolin. You wouldn't have one for Tenor, would you? That would be GDBE. Thanks, Champ49

No, I'm a Mando player and can't claim any expertise in Tenor Guitar. I did use QwikChord http://www.qwikchord.com/portal/index.php to make the diagrams. Might try it out to see if it helps you document some good chords.