Making a better nut

[Mandoak]

Hello everyone
I am new with mandolins, very useful site and forum you have here.
1. I just bought a km150 which has a plastic nut and I want to change it to imporve the sound. I know the well made ones use bone (which I can not find). Has anyone tried using other material for making nut and how was the result?
2. does changing the tailpiece for a cast one really make that much of difference in sound? They are quite expensive to buy, if the advantage is in thickness wouldn't just adding a few layers of thin metal (same shape and size) under the existing tailpiece would be doing the same?
3. what other ways have you tried to improve a mandolin sound?
Thanks in advance
Manoak

[Shelagh Moore]

A well fitted bridge/saddle and nut (I would personally go for bone), decent strings and good setup will contribute most to a good sound. If you are handy you can do this yourself (bone nut blanks are available from luthiers suppliers... I'm in the UK but in the US there is Stewmac and Luthiers' Mercantile amongst others) but otherwise a local luthier/setup person familar with mandolins can do this easily. While a cast tailpiece is nice (both of my mandolins have them), changing the tailpiece will have less of an impact on the sound.

[billhay4]

Bone is easily found at Stewart McDonald or Luthiers Merchantile International. I'd suggest it.
A very good bridge can be gotten at Cumberland Acoustics. Both need careful fitting.
Bill

[Tavy]

Don't worry about the tailpiece: changing it is unlikely to change the sound.

Fitting a high quality bridge such as those from Cumberland acoustic will likely have the biggest effect - as long as it's very well fitted to the top.

Changing the nut will have a small effect on the open string sound, and none at all on fretted notes, so ask yourself if you can hear the difference between the two before embarking on that

[sunburst]

Hello everyone
I am new with mandolins, very useful site and forum you have here.
1. I just bought a km150 which has a plastic nut and I want to change it to imporve the sound. I know the well made ones use bone (which I can not find). Has anyone tried using other material for making nut and how was the result?
2. does changing the tailpiece for a cast one really make that much of difference in sound? They are quite expensive to buy, if the advantage is in thickness wouldn't just adding a few layers of thin metal (same shape and size) under the existing tailpiece would be doing the same?
3. what other ways have you tried to improve a mandolin sound?
Thanks in advance
Manoak

1. People have tried nearly everything you can imagine. Bone (and pearl) is the tried and true.
2. No and no.
3. I've tried lots of things to try to improve mandolin's sound and some of them have seemed to help, but they are things I've done during the building process. Once a mandolin is completed, set up is about the only real way to improve the sound. Nut, bridge and string come under the set up heading, and changes can tweek things to the preference of the player, but the basic mandolin is what it is once it's built. When we get right down to it, improving our playing is the most effective way to improve our instrument's sound.

[Steve Ostrander]

The km150 is the entry level Kentucky model. I wouldn't put any serious money into it (other than setup) Instead, I would save the money for an upgrade. It's not a bad mandolin, it's just not a great mandolin. You can get some pretty decnt A-style mandos for around $500 new.

[Folkmusician.com]

The KM-150 is my favorite mandolin at the price point. It is not a bad sounding instrument. The plastic used on the KM-150 nut is hard and probably not hurting your tone. Bone might sound a little better, but it will not be significant.

if the advantage is in thickness wouldn't just adding a few layers of thin metal (same shape and size) under the existing tailpiece would be doing the same?

Well, that might cause misc rattles and buzzes and could mute the top, but somehow adding mass to your existing tailpiece would in fact have the same basic effect as a swapping to a cast tailpiece. In other words, I wouldn't expect to hear much if any difference.

Aside from a string change and setup work, look to the bridge as the single biggest opportunity to change the tone. Even here, don't expect a huge improvement. It should however be noticeable.

[StuartGold]

I am also thinking of replacing my plastic nut with bone but recently, a friend of mine gave me a bunch of fossil Walrus tusk. Some fairly nice hard stuff. Would that make a better nut than the bone?

[sunburst]

...fossil Walrus tusk... Would that make a better nut than the bone?

No. If it is good quality it may be as good as bone, though.

[the padma]

...
what other ways ... to improve a mandolin sound?

Thanks in advance
Manoak

Practice.

[Rob Grant]

A good source of bone around these parts is "roadkill." After a few months in the tropical sun there are some fine "bone mines" along the local highways and byways. Occasionally I can even score the odd feral pig tusk ("legal" ivory).<g>

[Pete Jenner]

A good source of bone around these parts is "roadkill." After a few months in the tropical sun there are some fine "bone mines" along the local highways and byways. Occasionally I can even score the odd feral pig tusk ("legal" ivory).<g>

Rob, last time I drove up your way I couldn't believe the quantity of the roadkill - in all my travels I've never seen anything like it.

[Denny Gies]

Mandoak, listen to Sunburst as he really knows what he is talking about and is really nice to work with.

[Mandoak]

Thank you everybody for your generous suggestions.
The roadkill nut hunting really made my day.
I will work on a better bridge.

[Rob Meldrum]

You're looking at the hard stuff first. As others have suggested, set it up properly first. Mandolincafe members can have a free copy of my ebook by emailing me at rob.meldrum@gmail.com. So email me and follow the instructions to properly set up your mandolin. In my experience, after a good set up the next biggest factor is your technique. I play in a band with a guy whose guitar won't project at all. He thinks a better guitar will change that. Funny thing is, he borrows one guy's Taylor, another's Yamaha, and my Martin, and his sound is small on each one. His technique is the issue. Bad attack with his right hand and weak string position and fret-change timing with his left hand. More money on a guitar won't change it... Lessons and practice, then repeat.

Rob

[the padma]

Ya, just like Rob said...practice.

Practice at least once a day. If that don't work...increase the dosage.


blessings
Padma

[Big Joe]

The items mentioned above (nut and bridge) can certainly help your mandolin, but it won't make your mandolin much more than it is now. A proper setup is the most important thing that can help. Spending 20% of the cost of your instrument for a new bridge that won't give night and day improvement is probably a poor choice...unless you have someone who really knows what they are doing fit it properly for you. Even then, the labor cost added to the bridge brings the cost out of proportion. Your best bet is to have a good set up, then practice until you are ready to upgrade. A little more money can get you a mandolin that is worth the expense of a new bridge properly fit. Welcome to the mandolin world and have a Blast!

[lonewolf]

I really think that investing the money you will spend trying to upgrade your existing mandolin, would be better spent on buying a better instrument. The actual voice of a good instrument, comes more from the wood used, and the quality of the workmanship, than from any individual parts attached to it.

Yes you can probably improve it a little bit. If you're serious about your music, you are eventually going to come to the conclusion that you really want and need a better instrument.
Gene Warner
retired repairman

[Roger Kunkel]

You can get bone at a pet store.

[Michael Lewis]

There has been a lot of good advice given here. I think making the mandolin you have now as playable (set up) as possible and save your money until you can afford an up grade. The set up is to remove the obstacles or difficulty of playing from the instrument so you can learn the fingering more easily.

A good instrument can be an inspiring thing when you play it but as has been stated here previously, YOU will be the most important aspect of your tone, so practice, practice, and do it some more. If you learn how to play really well a good instrument will be more valuable to you, and conversely a great instrument will not make you a better player, though a great instrument can inspire one to play and practice more.

[StuartGold]

Generally speaking, nuts are put in with a minimum of glue. I wonder if the makers of cheap factory production mandolins tend to over glue the plastic nuts? Does anyone out on this thread have experience with replacing plastic nuts and how hard it was to get them out?

[sunburst]

No generalizations apply. Sometimes the nut will fall of on the bench when the strings are removed, sometimes the maker glued the nut in so securely and completely that it is destroyed in the process of trying to remove it. The quality of the instrument or the nut doesn't seem to correlate (some builders of high quality instruments seem to think the nut is an important structural part and must be attached as though life depends upon it's remaining securely in place).

[Jim Rowland]

I've made a habit of leaving the nut unglued. I gives me a little side-to-side adjustment room on string alignment. If I'm sending the instrument to a new home,I use a small dot of glue to preclude surprises during string changes.
Jim

[gauze]

No. If it is good quality it may be as good as bone, though.

I'd think it wouldn't be good at all, correct me if I am wrong but fossil implies that all the organic materials have been replaced with stone, has anyone ever made a stone nut? doesn't seem like a good material.


ah crap where is the original post about using fossil walrus tusk?

[sunburst]

correct me if I am wrong but fossil implies that all the organic materials have been replaced with stone, has anyone ever made a stone nut?

You are correct that "fossil" means mineralized, or "turned to stone", but it has become a term used in trade to differentiate ivory from legal sources from ivory from illegal sources. In commerce, "fossil" basically means "old". Specifically, ivory taken from long dead animals like mastodons, walrus, and other creatures from the far north where frozen carcases can be found more-or-less preserved for centuries. Such material (much like old, sunken logs) has been "sold" pretty aggressively under claims of it's superiority to more standard materials, when in fact it comes down to the specific material whether is is good quality or not.

...and yes, of coarse people have tried making nuts from stone. As I said earlier, people have tried nearly everything you can imagine.