scottish tunes question

[Werner Jaekel]

just spoke to my daughter ringing from the the Bagpipes Galore shop. They have the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock.

Spoke to the shop owner (?)on the phone, and he recommended one of them to me. A very nice and helpful person. He was even lilting into the phone for me to demonstrate some tunes from the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection.

That would never happen in Germany .

She will also bring "Pipedown" cds.

Do you mean notation or repertoire in the above? I'm not terribly sure what bands do in terms of arrangements (never played in one) - they may simplify some elements to make it easier for the band to play together. The pipe major has the responsibility for arranging their sets, I think, so that might happen. Solo players may well change ornamentation a lot to add variety and show off technique, so perhaps not that unlike other instruments.

Would this reflect in some volumes, like the Scots Guards'?

I meant in notation. The reason why I resort to tune books now is that I am getting tired of simplyfied abc and tabs with many details missing. I want to learn from the real thing. I noticed that when I was working on the Donald Cameron notation.

I would be more interested in notation for soloplayers.

reading http://hspeek.home.xs4all.nl/dadgad/theory.html I wondered if one could apply this to all celtic. And that maybe the celtic music tradition is deriving from mainly the scales and possibilities of the pipes. Common denominator being the scales of the Uilleann and the scottish bagpipes. Both share a common tradition to some point

In other words, is all orginal celtic folk music also influenced by these scales ?

So maybe in 90 % one gets around with a limited number of scales and chords, both scottish and irish, mainly in D and G, and A

That makes it easier to learn by ear , to write them down and to add to them.

In this thread I did learn alot. It is like reaching a new level. Very interesting.

[Niall Anderson]

[QUOTE=Werner]
just spoke to my daughter ringing from the the Bagpipes Galore shop. They have the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection in stock.

Spoke to the shop owner (?)on the phone, and he recommended one of them to me. A very nice and helpful person. He was even lilting into the phone for me to demonstrate some tunes from the Pipe Major Donald Macleod's collection.
[/QUOTE ]

Brilliant - love it! Really glad that worked out.


[QUOTE=Werner]
Would this reflect in some volumes, like the Scots Guards'?
[/QUOTE ]

Possibly, but I've never seen SG arrangements as being particularly simple... There's probably another discussion to be had here about what an "authentic" arrangement is for a piece of traditional music - with many of the tunes in these collections, you are getting one person's view of how the tune might be played, so it's worth no more nor less than that. The exception (in some sense) is with something like the Donald Macleod book - there you are getting the composer's view of his own tune (although the collection includes some other people's tunes and some trad. as well), so in that case perhaps you could claim that that is authentic.



[QUOTE=Werner]
I would be more interested in notation for soloplayers.
[/QUOTE ]

Not sure if there is such a thing - the variations I was talking about are probably improvised/ personalised, so not necessarily written down anywhere. That said, things like the Allan Macdonald book are perhaps more geared towards solo playing (that is, Allan probably doesn't compose for bands as such, but more for tunes he would play in recitals etc). Similarly, modern composers like Gordon Duncan, Fred Morrison, etc would have an eye to their solo work when writing, although GD was of course also writing for the Vale of Atholl band, so my thesis breaks down a bit there!

In terms of influences in Irish and Scottish music, pipes will certainly have played a role, but the harp and fiddle musn't be neglected - they must have played a huge (bigger?) role. So, in short, it's complicated...

One other comment I meant to make earlier and forgot - if you are planning to play these tunes on octave mandolin, I wouldn't necessarily think you should try to duplicate pipe ornamentation. The grace note movements are very specific to the shape of the chanter and the way that you play a chanter - things that are easy to do there become difficult and rather unimpressive sounding on a fretboard. It's about extracting the essence of the tune, not every last detail... Perhaps Dagger can advise here, as someone with long expereince of transferring pipe tunes to mandolin?

[JeffD]

There's probably another discussion to be had here about what an "authentic" arrangement is for a piece of traditional music - with many of the tunes in these collections, you are getting one person's view of how the tune might be played, so it's worth no more nor less than that.

To generalize, this is often the case with any collection of tunes.

It's about extracting the essence of the tune, not every last detail.

Also, generalizing from pipe tunes to all of traditional music including fiddle tunes, the above is the entire job. I have had to use judgement if I hadn't heard the tune before, to separate out the transcriber's or editor's ornamentation from what is essential to the tune. I can tell I cut too deep by identifying what, if changed, would render it a different tune.

If I have a recording, or in fact several recordings from several artists, I like to listen and whistle or hum the tune until I get it without the recording. Then I test my hummed version against the other recording and see if what I have can still be called, "the same tune". If it can, then thats what I keep.

Of course over time as I play it my own ornaments and preferences creep in. But I see that as OK (if tasteful), as long as I put in the effort to start with a clean tune.

[John Kelly]

The thread continues to fascinate! Niall's point about not trying to duplicate exactly the ornamentations on the pipe score is a very valid one - those ornamentations are very much for the chanter and the way it is played and fingered. Look at hammer-ons and pull-offs in your ornamentations on the mandolin or octave - A favourite of mine is to hammer from the F# on the E string to the high A, and from the open A to the C# or D.
Loved your anecdote of the Edinburgh shopkeeper in Bagpipes Galore. Remember that this was how pipe music was originally passed on, using sung sounds to represent the tunes and their ornamentations. The language was called Cantarach and I have heard pipe tutors teaching a class the rudiments of pibroch by singing to them and having them repeat the sounds, each of which represents a particular note or phrase/ornamentation on the pipes. It is a fascinating experience listening to this.
Here is a link to a page where you will find a Mary Morrison from Barra singing Mrs MacLeod of Raasay in cantarach. Sounds positively tribal! http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/...tcm4554493.asp
Scroll down of the right of the page to find her version among many other versions.

[Werner Jaekel]

Mostly I use the mandolin. But when I tried to learn by ear from pipes I thought the octav is closer.

Mary Morrison from Barra singing Mrs MacLeod of Raasay

Love it ! When I was living in Ireland there are these "Singing Pubs". The locals gathered there to drink and make music. Especially in Donegal they were very fit in lilting. Perfect. Very enjoyable. And the porter was gone down in no time..Wished I had never left...

By the way. The man in the shop did a perfect job. One could imagine the pipes...

There is an example on youtube some playing Maggie Cameron on the guitar http://youtu.be/V8GkLTnownM.

Well done, but no longer particularly "scottish"

This can be done any composition, make it jazzy, bluesy or waltz.

Allan Ferguson is staying close to the notation but expands on the ornamentation sometimes. He leaves out passages and elaborates on others. It still sounds as scottish as can be. ( Donals Cameron , beginning of third and fourth staff e c sharp a a g a) This one way to do it, the other like you said, John, with hammer ons and pull offs.
https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/donald-cameron

Scottish tunes are very distinctiv. I recognise them straight away from irish, for example. Slow or fast. Many of them are so beautiful with an obvoius tempation to take them somewhere else. In popular music this is done quite often, without naming the origin.

People like from Fleadh Cheoil would hardly improvise on a tune. That's fine. Tradition is very important.
But once in their kitchen, or loo ( pipes, see youtube), they probably do.

Also, generalizing from pipe tunes to all of traditional music including fiddle tunes, the above is the entire job. I have had to use judgement if I hadn't heard the tune before, to separate out the transcriber's or editor's ornamentation from what is essential to the tune. I can tell I cut too deep by identifying what, if changed, would render it a different tune.

This requires some experience. Beside tradition, which should be maintained, that's the fine art in music, I think.

But why should the scales in celtic predominantly be reuduced to G, D and A ?


the harp: nowadays http://www.celticharper.com/tuneharp.html
An example of a diatonic scale would be: C D E F G A B C
An example of a chromatic scale would be: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C

scale (1840)
http://www.calumcille.com/modhan/gleusan/1A.html
D E F G A B C D E F G A B C D ( without levers)

http://www.calumcille.com/

The Gaelic song tradition in Scotland is very diatonic. A strong relationship would have existed between song and the diatonically tuned harp or lyre. ................The harper could not change tuning manually while playing. evidence for an
influence on Irish song from chromatic English song. However, the harp tunings
provided by Edward Bunting cater for a mostly diatonic harp tradition and some
chromaticism only at the octave, eg the F# being sounded only an octave below F
natural and not a semitone above it. The Gaelic harp/song tradition in Ireland
therefore seems to have been strongly diatonic as in Scotland.................. Any harper working with a singer, as per the historical model of harper and reciter, would need to know how to set his instrument so that certain types of tunes, with certain scales and certain melodic ranges, could be fitted on the harp gamut in a position appropriate to the singer's vocal range.
.

http://www.celtic-instruments.com/pi...s/history.html
bagpipes arrived in Scotland sometime during the 1300s
Around the 11th century, small triangular harps appeared in Ireland and the Scottish Highlands.

http://www.oldmusicproject.com/occ/tunes.html
O'Carolan was a harper. Mostly used by him : D, G, C, a few F, A

Bowed instruments appear in numerous European carvings and illustrations dating from around 900 A.D. ....The term 'fiddle' itself is somewhat general; it was originally the term for a twelfth century instrument, which was constructed of flat boards for the top, back and sides. This original 'fiddle' developed into the litre da braccio, the most significant predecessor of the violin. The term was later adopted for any member of the classical strings family, but has become particularly associated with the violin in the context of traditional music in Europe and America.

The earliest examples of a bowed instrument and of a bow itself date from the eleventh century and were excavated in Dublin in the eighteenth century. The bow is the earliest example of a medieval bow in Europe. According to "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" ( Vallely 1999, pg 123) The earliest reference to the fiddle in Ireland is from a seventh century account of the Fair of Carman by O'Curry:

So, fiddle, harp or bagpipes, they are around for a very long time. The harp was used before the pipes. 1100 vs 1300, the fiddle maybe even before that. ( last year I bought a Sarangi in Nepal. Looks like something which could have been used around that time)

But which one was more widely used in public, by composers and by common people ? Which one had more influence ? On predominant scales?

Maybe their use resulted in different scales for different genres.. Being either Chromatic or diatonic , basically the fiddle vs the pipes . But why then is folkmusic predominatly in D,G and Amajor for scottish I still not clear to me.

Anyway, it is getting rather theoretical. But an interesting subject.

Maybe that the irish, the scottish or the english simply fancy certain scales , because of tradition .

New idea: maybe these scales are more easily handled in cantarach and lilting or portaireacht bhéil , pitch wise. No problem for Mary Morrison from Barra.

[Niall Anderson]

Thinking more about this question of the predominant keys in Scottish and Irish music, I'm convinced that the explanation is the tuning of the fiddle : GDAE gives you the first and fifth of the keys G, D, A, so these sound particularly strong. Maybe someone else knows of some academic work on this, but I'm sure that has major influence.

In terms of getting tunes to sound Scottish, how about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

Scottish guitarist Tony MacManus, playing the Seagull by Donald Macleod in DAEAAE tuning (capo'ed to bring it into GHB pitch). I think he does a marvellous job of imitating a pipe band using drone notes and guitar (not pipe) ornamentation. Lots of triplets reproducing the effects of birls. Enjoy!

[Pasha Alden]

Hi there

Being from Scotish heritage I find this interesting and am so pleased that someone is working on tunes for the mandolin from those beautiful but cold lands. Sorry am even a greater novice than you are with music theory, but the mandolin will help me pick it up. Played some violin, piano and recorder before, even Oeboe.

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi Vannillamandolin,

yes, further up north Scotland is even colder than Germany. But beautiful indeed. My wife has some relatives in South Africa by the name of Garbade.

So you are playing Oboe. There are some speculations on the internet that the Oboe is a forerunner to the bagpipes. Actually, of all the wind instruments the Oboe is my favourite, after the bagpipes. Very mellow, soft and warm. Used to the mandolin I wonder what it is like to play the fiddle. Is it any easier or is the fingerboard very different ? Must try a shop.

My fascination for irish and scottish is as old as I can remember. Must be in the genes.
And there is plenty of material and information on the internet, even a forum like this one. But not so much in scottish pipe music.

I never bothered about music theory. With the abc, tab ,tef and mid I got around fine. But inevitably there comes a point when simply playing from a sheet with tabs is getting boring and when curiosity is taking over. I started playing late in life. So if I want to get somewhere I have to catch up. I dig into the theory only as much as needed to understand what I am working on. And it is essential if one wants to expand on a theme to be familiar with modal scayles, the circle, harmonies etc.

Sorry am even a greater novice than you are with music theory

But you play the violin, piano ,recorder and Oeboe. That's what one calls a kind understatement, I guess.

What genre of music are you into ?

Hi Niall and John,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

that's fantastic.

So far I did not manage to find a way for the embellishments without messing up the tune. Maybe a question of placing emphasis and gravity on certain notes, and speed of course. What is meant for the chanters does not work on the mandolin. Not without alot of practise, anyway.

[PseudoCelt]

...why should the scales in Celtic predominantly be reduced to G, D and A?

Maybe their use resulted in different scales for different genres.. Being either chromatic or diatonic, basically the fiddle vs the pipes . But why then is folkmusic predominantly in D, G and Amajor for scottish I still not clear to me.

Maybe that the irish, the scottish or the english simply fancy certain scales, because of tradition.

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, but...

I think the common scales in Scottish/Irish music derive partly from the limitations of the non-chromatic instruments used to play the music: pipes, flute, whistle, etc. A whistle or flute in D can easily play tunes in certain D major-related modes (D ionian, E dorian, A mix, B aeolian) and G major-related modes (G ionian, A dorian, D mixolydian). These seven modal scales cover a large proportion of Irish and Scottish tunes.

The standardisation of instruments playing modes specifically based around G, D and A major, rather than other keys, could have been influenced by the keys easily played in first position on the fiddle.

I think the harp mostly occupied a separate tradition, and was never really a “folk” instrument in the sense of being used by the common people. However, a simple harp would have the same limitations in terms of available modes as the other non-chromatic instruments.

Patrick

[John Kelly]

Hi Werner,
tried to go to the link in your last mail quote:

"Hi Niall and John,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

that's fantastic." Unfortunately I got a "This video does not exist" message from the site.
has it been removed, or is there a fault in the address?

[Niall Anderson]

John,

I think that' s the URL of Tony MacManus I posted upthread. That link still works, although the forum has shortened it slightly. Presumably quoting it doesn't include the full URL behind the shortened version, so it doesnt work second time round.

Niall

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi John, yes, your link does not work.

"The Seagull" taught by Tony McManus " title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI7zS...e_gdata_player

this one is working for me.
But the share link is this one

http://youtu.be/dI7zSSRTw0c

Try embedding

http://<iframe width="420" height="3...reen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dI7zSSRTw0c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Doing something wrong with embedding


Hi PseudoCelt,

D ionian = d e fsharp g a b csharp =1 2 3 4 5 6 7 formula

E dorian = e fsharp g a b csharp d= 1 2 flat3 4 5 6 flat7

A mix= a b csharp d e fsharp g =1 2 3 4 5 6 flat7

B aeolian natural minor = b csharp d e fsharp g a =1 2 flat3 4 5 flat6 flat7


G ionian = g a b c d e fsharp

A dorian = a b c d e fsharp g

D mix=d e fsharp g a b c

source mandolin scale finder Hal Leonard

checking the fingerboard 1st position fits, but same with many others

diatonic five whole steps and two half steps for each octave

You may have a point there.

Easily distinguishable irish or/and scottish demand a certain scale and tempo. People in the countryside learning music via tradition did what has always been done, using the scale handed down to them in order to sound familiar. ( Mary Morrison from Barra.)

I do not believe many played anything other than 1st position. Other instruments were the pipes, flute, whistle, and most important, the voice.

I think you are right with the harp. O'Carolan earned his bread and bed composing and singing for whealthy people.

I suppose something like Fleadh Cheoil exists for a long time. I was reading that O'Carolan furiously objected to some other musician producing something unfamiliar.

Is there something in Scotland like Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann ?

[Werner Jaekel]

The High Drive

http://youtu.be/d-EmeFp-TA0

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/UserGuide.htm

mixolodian minor G(v) D(ii) A (vi)
major Bflat (VII) F(IV) C (I)
diminished E (iii °)

my conlusion: I still don't know why in celtic predominatly C D and A is used. This forum was very helpful and I learned alot.

But I know now what to look out for with the bagpipe tune books I ordered.

Thanks anyway. And I will the try the capo 1st fret.

[Bernie Daniel]

Werner thanks for starting this string and thanks to Niall, John, Dagger and others who provided the outline for a good book on how to play pipe tunes on the mandolin! From my view this is one of the best threads ever --if fact I'm thinking of copying these posts into a Word file for reference later.

Pipers are clearly in a world of their own!

Werner exactly what is your final product as you work through this tunes -- a score in standard notation or are you putting it in to ABC?

Also exactly how are you working this? I gather you slow the tune down and then do you have good enough pitch to write out the right note directly or what?

Anyway it's a great project you've started there. Maybe the end product is "Werner Jaekel's Pipe tune for the Mandolin" book!

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi Bernie, are you seroius ? You are very kind. Thank you.

What you are implying is more a job for the persons mentioned, John Kelly, Dagger Gordon, Niall Anderson and others.

They have the knowledge I am looking for.

Yes, pipers are a world of their own. And also the notation.

Chance given I would ask a piper to play a key tone and use the chromatic tuner to adapt to the pitch until I reach the exact tone.

The motivs for this thread are firstly my interest in celtic, especially scottish. Why scottish I don't know. It simply appeals to me. Maybe it is the rhythm, the scales used, the harmonies. I believe the mandolin especially lends itself to play this kind of music. Particularly to the scotch snap.

An example is " John MacColl's Farewell to the Scottish Horse". Not the one on the internet but by Allan.
https://soundcloud.com/allanferg/joh...arewell-to-the
Plenty of snapping here and great fun to play

My knowledge in music theory is limited, learning as I go. Reading standard notation I can instantly assign the correct mandolins' fret, but playing from standard notation at faster speeds would require more practise. So I take some paper and write down the tabs. I am working on abc theory to be able to convert later

With Allan Ferguson's tunes, for example, I slow them down with Audacity and write them down as tabs. Same with other tunes where I have only mp3 available ( Dagger Gordon's Wades Welcome, Ardross Hall, Luke PLumb's Marion and Donald....) This is a very useful hearing training for following any melody.

interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombard_rhythm

The Lombard rhythm or Scotch snap is a syncopated musical rhythm in which a short, accented note is followed by a longer one. This reverses the pattern normally associated with dotted notes or notes inégales, in which the longer value precedes the shorter.
The "Scotch snap" of Scotland also feature syncopation.

[Bernie Daniel]

Well maybe I got carried away a little and perhaps I should have qualified it a little and said it was one of the best strings ever especially on Scottish bagpipe music!!

But it still was an excellent string because it answered a lot of questions that I wondered about as well and it answered some questions that I had not even thought of but should have!!

I also seem to find Scottish music most interesting of the Celtic genera although I should be a bit careful as my wife all her family here came from the Emerald Isle.

I think it is pretty great that you can transcribe directly from mp3 to tab. I've never tried to do that I just slow it down until I can learn by ear what note to play -- I suppose writing it down might actually be more efficient?

Anyway is a great thread and I do play to copy the individual posts into a Word doc and then edit and organize the information about pipes and the music for future reference.

And thanks a lot for the tip on the "Farewell to the Scottish Horse" what a totally delightful tune -- need to learn that one. The horses gait in the rhythm is the icing on the cake!

[Werner Jaekel]

Bernie, thanks again.

If you ever find more information on this topic I would be grateful if you would share it.

My work is really starting when I receive the books.

The occasional irish tune might offer some consolation to your family.

But indeed, they are different.

And that is another question I would like to know. What makes them different. But I better stop here now.

[Jock]

Great thread Werner

I think learning to sing the tunes out accurately, no matter how crappy the singing, helps immensely. It's what I do when I'm learning a new tune, as do others that I know.

When learning by ear, try putting the tune down as an abc directly, TAB won't play it back for you, as far as I'm aware. Having a tune down as an abc first draft allows you to iron out those little inaccuracies on play back. Also teaches you quite a bit about the music, especially how to write out the various ornaments particularly triplets, eg: the difference between (3AAA and AA/A/ being able to hear it is rather handy. Singing all the while of course.

In abc I've been trying to get to grips with notating pipe 2/4 marches and my approach to have them play back reasonably is double the 2 of the 2/4 so notating as 4/4, but then half the L field 1/16 instead of 1/8. 2/4's should play fine notated this way, in most abc editors.

So, by way of a pre book arrival preview here are a couple of 2/4's. First one is a special tune to me and from PM DM's book 6, the other an old favorite:

X: 1
T: The Hills of Kintail
C: PM Donald MacLeod
M: 2/4
L: 1/16
R: march
K: HP
e2 | A2A>B e>Ae>d | B<AG>B d>ed>B | A2A<B A>Be>f | g>ef>d e2d>B |
A2A>B e>Ae>d | B<AG>B d>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :|
B<d | e>aa>g a2e>f | g2e>f g>ed>B | e>aa>g a>ge<a | g>ef>d e2d<d |
[1 e>aa>g a2e>f | g2e>f g>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :| [2 e2A>B G2A>B |
B<de>f g>ed>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 ||
B<d | e>Ae>d e>fg>e | d>BA>B G>Bd>B | e>Ae>d A>Be>f | g>ef>d e2B<d |
e>Ae>d e>fg>e | d>ed>B G>Bd>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :|
g2 | a>ge>f g>ef>d | e>Bd>B G>Bd>B | a>ge<a a>ge>f | g>ef>d e2g2 |
[1 a>ge>f g>ef>d | e>Bd>B G>Bd>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 :| [2 B<de>d B2A>B |
G>AB>A B2G>B | e>fg>e d>BG>A | A<BA2 A2 ||

X: 2
T: The Clan MacColl
C: ? Can’t remember
M: 2/4
L: 1/16
R: march
K: HP
|: e>d | c2d>B A<Ac<e | a2c>d e2d>c | d2G2 G<GB<e | d>cB>c d2e>d |
c2d>B A<Ac<e | a2c>d e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: c>d | e2f>g a2g<e | g2a>g e2d>c | d2G2 G<GB<e | d>cB>c d2c>d |
e2c>A a2g<e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: e>c | A2A>c A<eA>c | c<ac>d e2d>c | B<dc<e B<dG>B | B<gB>c d2e>c |
A2A>c A<eA>c | c<ac>d e2d>c | B<GB<e c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 :|
|: c>d | e>ca>f e>Ac<e | e<ac>d e2d>c | B<dc<e d>GB<d | d<gB>c d2c>d |
[1 e>ca>f e>Ac<e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ea>e | c2A2 A2 :|
[2 e>cd>B c<Ac>e | g2a>f e2d>c | B<GB<d c<ef>e | c2A2 A2 ||

Here's a couple of abc tutorials I've found useful;

http://www.lesession.co.uk/abc/abc_notation.htm#intro

http://www.lesession.co.uk/abc/abc_notation_part2.htm

[Jock]

Should also add that most abc editors will allow "HP" (Highland Pipe) in the (key) K: field, if it doesn't work just swap out HP for Amix.

HP, if the editor allows it, is a handy fit all key designation for any highland pipe tune regardless of key.

[Werner Jaekel]

Hi Jock, thank you.

I think learning to sing the tunes out accurately, no matter how crappy the singing, helps immensely. It's what I do when I'm learning a new tune, as do others that I know.

Yes, also my experience. But unfortunatly there is a divergence between the tone in my mind and what my throat is making of it. I never trained my voice. It is something I always wanted to do. Singing while playing. Many people do, however quietly.

True, whenever I am able to play fluently it is because my mind is slightly ahead, aware of the detail following.

I am a mad collector of tunes. I have thousands and I like them all, nearly. I should be more disciplined and restrict my repertoire to a smaller number and then I could learn them by heart. So I play from the sheet, nearly any of them. I open a folder and start playing.

Doodling without any sheet, it is surprising to me how many develop from my mind, hidden in some corner of it.

You are right. Absolutely.

When learning by ear, try putting the tune down as an abc directly, TAB won't play it back for you, as far as I'm aware. Having a tune down as an abc first draft allows you to iron out those little inaccuracies on play back. Also teaches you quite a bit about the music, especially how to write out the various ornaments particularly triplets, eg: the difference between (3AAA and AA/A/ being able to hear it is rather handy. Singing all the while of course.

The reason why I am putting them down as tab is because I hear a tone, fret it and write it down. It works very fast. Sometimes I listen to a complete line and put it down. Putting it down as abc requires a good ear . This is what I would like to accomplish. This is also why I am into the theory of the abc now. I want to be able to do that.

The short cold winter days are perfect for this job.

You are right here also, abc says alot more than tabs.

May I ask you, are you practising cantarach ? I would guess that you started very early and grew up with the music from a very young age on ? And all of your family is probably engaged in music ?

In abc I've been trying to get to grips with notating pipe 2/4 marches and my approach to have them play back reasonably is double the 2 of the 2/4 so notating as 4/4, but then half the L field 1/16 instead of 1/8. 2/4's should play fine notated this way, in most abc editors.

So, by way of a pre book arrival preview here are a couple of 2/4's. First one is a special tune to me and from PM DM's book 6, the other an old favorite:

I am really grateful for this. This will serve to me as an example how to do it.

Do you have anything on youtube or soundcloud ?

I converted them to mid and tef. Perfect job. I will start to learn them straight away.

Which speed would you use on the mandolin and the pipes resp. ?

Should also add that most abc editors will allow "HP" (Highland Pipe) in the (key) K: field, if it doesn't work just swap out HP for Amix.

HP, if the editor allows it, is a handy fit all key designation for any highland pipe tune regardless of key.

Thank you.

I printed the two and went over them at an even undotted pace, with some gravity and emphasis in some places. . They are beautiful.

http://www.pipetunes.ca/browseproducts.asp The Clan MacColl composer John MacColl

[Niall Anderson]

The High Drive

http://youtu.be/d-EmeFp-TA0

http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/UserGuide.htm

mixolodian minor G(v) D(ii) A (vi)
major Bflat (VII) F(IV) C (I)
diminished E (iii °)

my conlusion: I still don't know why in celtic predominatly C D and A is used. This forum was very helpful and I learned alot.

But I know now what to look out for with the bagpipe tune books I ordered.

Thanks anyway. And I will the try the capo 1st fret.

Werner,

Just checking in - my wife has just given birth to a little boy, so this is my first quiet moment for a couple of days to browse the forum.

The closest Scottish equivalent to CCE is the Feis movement - Dagger teaches mandolin and guitar for them. They run classes and teaching weekends mainly for young people, but some adult-related courses too. I met Dagger at an adult Feis 2 years ago like this. There are also some city-specific organisations that promote music, song and dance - Scots Music Group in Edinbugh, SCAT in Aberdeen, Glasgow Fiddle Workshop, plus a few more.

Loved the bassoon on the High Drive video! Also maybe useful for learning - the pipes being played initially are probably smallpipes in A, and the big set is probably using a border/ reel pipe chanter also in A, so it means you don't have to worry about all the complexities of highland pipe tuning. Havent been able to check the pitch directly - am sitting in the hospital at the moment, with wife and baby asleep for now!

Anyway, ditto to the comments about this being an interesting thread, and hope my contributions have been useful. I started off playing smallpipes a number of years ago, and have only more recently swapped to playing mandolin and cittern, at least in part because they are slightly more compatible with having young children in the house! Good fun to chat about all things pipe-related.

Regards,

Niall

[Werner Jaekel]

Congratulations ! And best wishes to your new baby boy and the happy mother.

And thank you for your interesting contributions to this thread.

Regards

Werner

[John Kelly]

Niall, only know you through this forum, but my best wishes to you, your wife and the newly-born piper/mandolin player! Can just imagine your next tune - Niall Anderson's Welcome to (add in name here). I think probably a 2/4 march.

Jock, many thanks for the two great 2/4s you have posted here. Two more for me to have great pleasure learning.

[Werner Jaekel]

Niall, John,

what a wonderful conclusion for a thread.

John has expressed it perfectly.

Best wishes.

[kmmando]

Hi Werner,
here's my efforts at the lovely 6/8 pipe march by the great John MacColl - there's a recent collection of his tremendous tunes now available. I thought it might be of interest to try these on the mandolin. There's a couple more Scottish sets I'll pop up shortly, Scottish styled tunes, might be of interest, playing's a bit ropey as I haven't played a lot of late.
regards, Kevin Macleod Edinburgh