Licensing fee for live music ..

[mandroid]

Was told BMI/ ASCAP Or similar,read about our little Tavern Jam, and called about
the place needing to pay a performance license fee..

I've heard about this happening in cities where there is real money being made,
but our little circle around the table, just has the tip jar available,
and sometimes the only people in the place is Us,
(and often the jar doesn't even cover the bar-tab.)

Owners of the business, said 'don't worry about it', so we will continue ..
but the reminder of the weight of the word Business
in the 'music business' phrase was immediately brought to mind..

just wondering, has any similar happened to y'all , Jams that require playing only
Public Domain music, or self written songs..
to avoid Performance License/copyright conflicts.

Pretty much eliminates playing well known music, How to answer the
"do you guys know... ?" questions..

[JeffD]

There are several threads in this regard that can be found with the search engine. I battled BMI/ASCAP on these issues, many years ago when I ran a coffeehouse. I have described it in some detail in various threads.

[JH Murray]

Our church is often rented by promoters putting on a concert. We have been told by SOCAN (the Canadian equivalent of BMI/ASCAP) that we have to ensure that SOCAN fees are paid for any event which uses music. This includes live music as well as recorded music used in an exercise class. The only exception is for religious services. They have the ability to take any church/cafe/store/bar to court for failing to comply. The venue is on the hook for the fees, even if they are not the promoter. Not a fun set of laws to navigate your way through. We consulted with lawyers, and now we include in our rental contracts the requirement that the renter provide proof of SOCAN fees being paid.

[MikeEdgerton]

You can find several threads about this here.

[Paul Kotapish]

The Bazaar Cafe in San Francisco has a strict originals-or-public-domain policy on material performed there.

I don't know if you can read this, but the sign over the band reads:

"BMI & ASCAP . . . Want My Dough . . . If You Play Covers . . . Out You Go . . . Burma Shave"



Folks generally honor the limitation, and the venue has become a popular spot for singer-songwriters and fingerstyle guitar composers.

There are a few other local clubs and coffeehouses with similar strictures.

[Pete Martin]

Very cool!!! I hope many places will follow the same strategy.

[mandroid]

IDK since the place is mismanaged for the most part like the Biz might be a write off

and the fine, if any another deduction.


neighbor's precedent,
the cafe next door was a write down, for the large Contract construction biz owner,
till they screwed up royal, on a job, and got Sued, then they had no need for 'losses' to write down
, the court did that part, and the cafe closed.. [had nothing to do with the music agents.]

Is it still a performance if, other than the bartender, the musicians playing are the entire population?

other than 1 night it's TV and the Web linked Juke box, and the video gaming machines.

(we co-operate they can play those, and the picking still goes on.. )

[JeffD]

"BMI & ASCAP . . . Want My Dough . . . If You Play Covers . . . Out You Go . . . Burma Shave"



Folks generally honor the limitation, .

That was one of the ideas I suggested to ASCAP/BMI, and they didn't take kindly to it. I don't know what they can do, as long as its strictly adhered to, but its the "generally" part that can be a problem They told me on the phone that they only have to catch one owned tune and the amount of problems they could make would be debilitating. I remember saying "for one infraction?" and they said they would "estimate" based on that how many infractions happened when they weren't there and go after the whole amount "for thier artists" and it was up to me to "prove" otherwise. Now this was in the 80s so things may have changed a bit.

[mandroid]

Well I hear copyright to 'Happy Birthday' keeps getting Renewed,
so every birthday makes another suspect.

[wsugai]

I think that the main issue has to do with playing copyrighted music in conjunction with running a business. If you're making money off of it, even indirectly, then you need to pay the royalty. Put yourself in the songwriter's shoes -- if you were feeding your kids by writing music, I imagine you would be pretty demanding about royalties.

[Bob Clark]

How do you figure out whether the music you are playing is in the public domain. For recent stuff, that's easy (it's not public domain). But how about for older music? If it's from published sheet or book music, does the publisher hold a copyright? If you transcribed it from someone's recording, do they have the copyright? How about if it's a recording of a group playing renaissance music? Has the group altered the melody such that it's now 'theirs"? I really don't want to tread on anyone's copyright, but I am not sure what is and is not copyrighted. Help?

[Paul Kotapish]

Bob,

That's a complicated issue, and what you are concerned about at a gig is the performing rights--as distinct from the publishing rights (sheet music or tablature, for example) or mechanical royalty issues (for recordings--CD, digital, vinyl, etc.).

Here's a link to some basic information about all those areas of copyright law: http://www.publicknowledge.org/tutor...-for-musicians

Although the payment of performance royalties is the venue's responsibility--not the musicians'--your venue may require you to list everything you play and who owns the rights. (This is much more common at big theaters than in local coffeehouses and clubs.)

Determining the province for a given piece can be a real challenge, because there is no one central place you can look and get all the answers, and the fact that specific piece of music doesn't show up on a given list doesn't give any conclusive proof of its status.

Here are some places to start:

http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarja...searchc-r.html

http://www.royaltyfreemusic.com/publ...ve-status.html

http://www.newmediarights.org/guide/..._public_domain

Another good point of reference is checking with the Harry Fox Agency, which handles the bulk of requests for mechanical licenses. If a piece is listed there, there's a good chance that it is still copyrighted, but it gets a bit murky, but HFA lists a bunch of songs that are actually in the PD but have copyrighted arrangements. It's further complicated by the fact that a lot of publishers have attempted to gobble up old PD material and claim copyright on them.

Start with the Songfile resource at HFA: http://www.harryfox.com/public/songfile.jsp

And here's what ASCAP has to say on the matter: http://www.ascap.com/playback/2011/0...limelight.aspx

Good luck.
PK

[Bob Clark]

Hello Paul,

You have been extremely helpful. Thank you very much! One related concern I have is that I have transcribed some music that I'd like to share with others here on the Cafe, but I don't know if it's legal (or ethical) to do so. I really don't want to infringe on another's intellectual property. You have given me some great resources for figuring that out.

Thanks again, Bob

[Dan Hulse]

I think that the main issue has to do with playing copyrighted music in conjunction with running a business. If you're making money off of it, even indirectly, then you need to pay the royalty. Put yourself in the songwriter's shoes -- if you were feeding your kids by writing music, I imagine you would be pretty demanding about royalties.

Not so, you even need to pay royalties for (non-pd) music played at church! http://www.ccli.com/Default.aspx?Ter...etCookie=false

CCLI has a separate license for rehearsing/copying music

[JeffD]

I think that the main issue has to do with playing copyrighted music in conjunction with running a business. If you're making money off of it, even indirectly, then you need to pay the royalty. Put yourself in the songwriter's shoes -- if you were feeding your kids by writing music, I imagine you would be pretty demanding about royalties.

In general I agree, but its much more complicated. Back in the 80s anyway, I offered to keep a log, or to have performers give me a list, and they would not accept it, they wanted a flat fee based on how many people they thought came to our coffeehouse.

When I told them that the amount they wanted would destroy us, and I asked how was it calculated, thinking I could take give them attendance records or something, and they came back with asking how much we could afford to pay.

Which meant it wasn't based on anything. Not on the owned tunes that got played, or how many heard what got played, or anything. It was squeeze us up to and just before we squeal.

How did they know which owned tunes we played? If we concentrated for some reason on one or two artists, shouldn't those artists get their due, more than the thousands of tunes we didn't play?

It felt very much like a racket, where we pay for the previdge of not getting hassled. What we got was a sticker to put in the window.

[mandroid]

if someone asks to play a popular song, say. that will be $600, to pay the license fee , for another year.

If there were a universal 'liberty' license fee, paid out to every Veteran of the Wars,

would more people want to be soldiers, like they want fame, to be music stars.. ?