OM vs Irish Bouzouki

[Sweetpea44]

Or, I guess another way to answer the question, I plan on playing more melodies than accompaniment.

[Bertram Henze]

Or, I guess another way to answer the question, I plan on playing more melodies than accompaniment.

That seems to point to shorter scales indeed. You'll have to try how it works out.

But I have seen longscale zouk players play melody, too (they just have other ways of circumventing the stretch problems); plus, there is a large gray area between pure melody and pure accompaniment, the world of doublestops and little counter-melodies where the ITM zouk players dwell.

One thing is certain: neither OM nor zouk can be played exactly like a mandolin; you will have to adapt to the bigger fretboard in any case by changing what you play and which notes you leave out. So the instrument seems to be taking some already learnt skills away, but it gives you longer sustain in return.

[zoukboy]

What Bertram said.

I would encourage you to go with the longer scale and the GDAD tuning and see if you like it. One pointer, though, you will want to approach it as a completely different instrument from the mandolin (because it is) and learn new tunes in the new tuning. A LOT of frustration can be avoided that way.

The myth that GDAD is "better for accompaniment" and GDAE is "better for melody playing" stems from the frustration of trying to transfer ingrained repertoire (and associated muscle memory) from the one tuning/instrument to the other. Also, approaching the new tuning with new repertoire means you will be learning what the new tuning has to offer rather than constantly comparing differences.

Happy tunes! :-)

[michaelpthompson]

Just to add my two cents worth, I play a Gold Tone OM 800+ (22.5" scale length, tuned GDAE) and I like it a lot, but I have heard more good things about the TC instruments for beginners, and they're in the same price neighborhood. I got a good deal on my Gold Tone from a friend, so it works out well, and I had a K&K internal 3-head pickup put in it for when I play plugged in, which is when it sounds awesome, providing I have a good sound man. I mostly play chords and accompaniment for Irish music, so I have been toying with the idea of doing octave pairs, but haven't taken the time to experiment with it yet.

[Tim2723]

The other thing to consider is whether you want unison tuning (OM) or the more traditional zouk tuning in octaves. Though a lot of zouk players use unison as well.

[foldedpath]

One thing is certain: neither OM nor zouk can be played exactly like a mandolin; you will have to adapt to the bigger fretboard in any case by changing what you play and which notes you leave out. So the instrument seems to be taking some already learnt skills away, but it gives you longer sustain in return.

I would like to post a small (and very situation-dependent) objection to that idea.

It comes down to speed. The tunes in Irish, Scottish, and related traditions (assuming that's what we're talking about here), were created to be played for dancers at a foot-stomping tempo, which implies a certain fingering for instruments tuned in 5ths. These tunes were not written for guitar-like fretted instruments that would involve so much hand sliding.

For example...

Last month, I attended a local mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish pub session, where I normally play my mandolin. A friend was visiting in town, and I loaned him my mandolin for the session, and I brought my OM to play as a change of pace. That was a real workout. To keep up with the group's tempo, I had to finger pure mandolin style, with only the occasional hand-slide up to the B note on the upper E string. I know how to re-finger these tunes guitar-style on the OM, but it just wasn't quick enough.

It's fine to say that one should "re-fiinger for the longer scale," but these tunes were written to be played easily and quickly with fiddle fingering. When you're playing a fast set of tunes in a group of fiddlers, concertina players and pipers that finishes up with Brenda Stubbert's and then jumps to Pigeon on a Gate at full-tilt session speed... well, you have to keep up! You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din, if you can follow the fiddlers in that situation without using standard mandolin fingering on an OM.

Look at all the YouTube videos linked here, featuring the OM (or bouzouki) playing melodies. Ask yourself how many are actually at realistic high-end session or contra dance tempos. Most of the ones I've seen are far below actual session tempos.

So this question of scale length, playing melodies vs. backing with chords and so on... it's all well and good. But if you plan to actually play the tunes, at dance tempos, then I think that's an argument for shorter scales and keeping 'yer mandolin fingering. And if you're not going to play these tunes at full dance tempo... well, then... maybe you should be playing the mandolin instead. These tunes are meant to be foot-stompers, not dirges.

(running, ducking, and hiding)

[Bertram Henze]

...To keep up with the group's tempo, I had to finger pure mandolin style, with only the occasional hand-slide up to the B note on the upper E string. I know how to re-finger these tunes guitar-style on the OM, but it just wasn't quick enough.

The trick lies in knowing what to leave out - I can't keep up if I try to play every note like I would on the mandolin either - less is more. I usually give up on parts of the melody and add doublestops instead. For example, watch the B part of Julia Delaney's here:



Forgot to mention: this is 21" scale. For longer scale, I'd have to do something about some of the 2nd fret/5th fret stretches, but I am confident there'd be some replacement trick.

[Sweetpea44]

The other thing to consider is whether you want unison tuning (OM) or the more traditional zouk tuning in octaves. Though a lot of zouk players use unison as well.

Could the OM be tuned in either configuration? Would it be possible to string it in octave on the G and D by using a D string for the octave G and an A string for the octave D? Or, would the nut and bridge slots be an issue?

[zoukboy]

Could the OM be tuned in either configuration? Would it be possible to string it in octave on the G and D by using a D string for the octave G and an A string for the octave D? Or, would the nut and bridge slots be an issue?

It is quite simple to go from unison to octave bass pairs on an OM. All you have to do is either use an extra E string for the octave on the D and an extra A string for the octave on the G, or buy strings for the octave that are roughly 1/2 the gauge of the original.

For instance, if you are using D'Addario's J80 octave mandolin set:

len 23"

E .012" PL == 19.0#
E .012" PL == 19.0#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
D, .032" PB == 24.84#
D, .032" PB == 24.84#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 185.89#

and then used E and A strings for octaves on the D and G you would have these tensions:

E .012" PL == 19.0#
E .012" PL == 19.0#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
D .012" PL == 15.08#
D, .032" PB == 24.84#
G, .022" PB == 20.79#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 174.01#

Or you could take the second suggestion and end up with these:

E .012" PL == 19.0#
E .012" PL == 19.0#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
A, .022" PB == 26.2#
D .016" PL == 26.81#
D, .032" PB == 24.84#
G, .023" PB == 22.74#
G,, .046" PB == 22.91#
total == 187.69#

In the first case you would be completely safe because the overall tension would be lower than with the original set. In the second case you would still be within the parameter of safe tension. This assumes, of course, that the D'Addario set is suitable for your instrument in the first place, but it shows a couple of ways to approach the problem.

Also, depending on how the instrument's nut is set up, you might experience some buzzing when changing from unison to octave pairs, as well as some intonation issues. These have all been discussed in other threads. Short answer is if you decide to switch from unisons to octaves and keep it like that you will almost certainly need to have the intonation at the bridge modified.

[otterly2k]

Sweetpea - there's a very inexpensive Trinity College OM that just popped up in the Classified Ads. NFI - just want to draw your attention to it, in case it is of interest.

[Sweetpea44]

Sweetpea - there's a very inexpensive Trinity College OM that just popped up in the Classified Ads. NFI - just want to draw your attention to it, in case it is of interest.

Otterly2k - thanks! I contacted the seller earlier. He's ideally looking for a local sale, but I told him to keep me posted in case a local person didn't contact him first. I'll continue my search in the meantime. :-)

[mandroid]

My picking buddy has a TC Irish Zouk.. there are G,D, octave pair, on his .. string light
some chords are stretches.. and noting, for the violinist.. got his from one, 2nd hand.


shorter scale Octave will likely be all unison pairs and thicker strings,
mas, mass, to reach down to lower pitch..

[Barry Wilson]

My OM is an OM or a Bouzouki, depending who I am explaining to what it is. :D

[Rob Zamites]

I decided to kick this one back to life after reading an email from Nikos Apollonio who is creating a beastly 'cittern' for me.

Me:

...what scale length is my cittern going to be? I couldn't find it in our previous emails :-)

Nick:

No biggie....25 11/32". Puts the bridge in the right place on the soundboard w. a 16 fret neck. If I didn't mention, will send my chord chart for DADAD tuning to get you started. I've been thru various but settled on that one. CGCGC the same intervals.
I may call it a 5 course mandocello if I do one on spec, for marketing purposes (Old Gibsons fetch unbelieveable prices).

Just adding to the very muddied waters of CBOM nomenclature

[DavidKOS]

If you tune GDAE in unisons, it's an octave mandolin by definition. Unless it's a banjo!

Of course it could be an Irish bouzouki too! Isn't this fun?

Seriously, I've seen all sorts of tunings for Irish playing, DAD, GDAD, GDAE, ADAD, 5 string tunings, unison basses, octave basses, whatever.

Just have a Guinness and enjoy.

[Lord of the Badgers]

If the IB can withstand both tunings, then would it be considered a more versatile instrument? Or, is it more limiting because of the longer scale length and only used for chordal arrangements?

Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....

[DavidKOS]

Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....

Shucks, for some special uses (like Medieval tunes) I've used GDGD, too.

Whatever works.

[Rob Zamites]

Well, I've never tried a pure open tuning, so my initial experiments are going to be DADAD, at least until the next shiny looking tuning beckons!

[Sweetpea44]

Um, I've tuned an OM (and for that matter, standard Mandolin) in GDAD....

Haha -- I forgot about this old thread! I've learned a lot since starting this thread over 2 years ago. I've since then gotten both .... a used zouk I tune GDAD with octave pairs and a used OM. I have to say I've been playing the zouk more often recently. I love the sound of the octave strings and the 'slightly' different tuning with the high D.

[Lord of the Badgers]

re octave stringing, i do agree with you, but it's a bugger to record though ... lots of high frequency weirdness... our normally infallible engineer really struggled to tame em. It's why I went with a Forster Gzouk .... the vids of it in unison sound awesome

that and when you play tunes, it's a weird jump from octave to unison and in my buchanan, my fingers sometimes miss the hi string

[Colin Lindsay]

re octave stringing, my fingers sometimes miss the hi string

and they can be trouble to capo too, if you use one of those Devil’s attachments.….
I found a 12-string guitar one with the stronger grip was the only thing that would work. Anison, now, is no problem.

[Colin Lindsay]

Anison, now, is no problem.

Neither is unison….. with or without a spell checker…

[Lord of the Badgers]

I thought you might've been on about that woman out of Friends. You know, with the hair. Apparently. But that's got a T in it I think...

[Moonshine Mando]

Got a TC Bouzouki for the holidays and in research I found this thread - great info! I've been a browser for a while on the site but registered so that I could thank everyone for the info.

[Sweetpea44]

Glad you like the Zouk - and welcome to the Cafe!