OM vs Irish Bouzouki

[Sweetpea44]

I'm a little confused as to the differences between these two instruments. I've read that the tuning for the IB is GDAD but some people tune it like the OM. If they can be tuned the same then what are the differences between these two instruments? Also, for the GDAD tuning, is the second set of D strings tuned an octave higher than the first or something else? Thanks!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Scale length. IB is 26" plus. OM is sub 26" - usually sub 24". But it's a grey area... then there's the Cittern...
OM is a relatively new instrument which was designed to accommodate melody playing as opposed to the chordal accompaniment of the Irish Bouzouki, so the shorter scale facilitated that. I interchange melody and accompaniment between both instruments and I also vary their tunings between GDAE and GDAD...

[jmp]

There is a gray area, with no bright lines here, but generally speaking with tons of caveats etc. etc.:
1. Irish Bouzouki tends to have a bit longer scale length than on OM
2. Irish Bouzouki lower courses are more often tuned in octave pairs, whereas OM are more usually tuned in unison
3. Irish Bouzouki tuning can often be GDAd (yes 2nd set of D strings is octave higher than 1st set, not to be confused with the 1st set often consisting of an octave pair itself) or other alternate tunings, whereas OM by definition is tuned an octave lower than a "regular" mandolin


It is confusing because OM and Bouzouki and often used interchangeably as there are really not discrete differences here but more a continuum overlapping of musical instrument traditions.

[Eddie Sheehy]

@jmp your third point is confusing. The GDAD of the Zouk is the same register as the GDAE of the OM - the top string differs by 1 full step. The other pairs are a fifth apart.
There is a separate thread on Octave strings...

[jmp]

@Eddie Sheehy Agree with what you are saying! Since @Sweetpea44 was asking if the "Ds" in GDAD tuning were tuned an octave apart, I was trying to say YES they are an octave apart and wrote it as "GDAd" with the lowercase "d" being the higher octave.

The confusing point is that IF the "D" course is tuned in an octave pair and the "d" course is tuned in the unison, then one of the strings in the "D" course will be tuned the same as those in the "d" course.

[Sweetpea44]

If the IB can withstand both tunings, then would it be considered a more versatile instrument? Or, is it more limiting because of the longer scale length and only used for chordal arrangements?

[Eddie Sheehy]

They can both take either tuning since it's only a full step up or down on the top pair - but of course doing it too often will cause a twaaaannnnngggg..... and replacement.... The only limitation is the player...

[jmp]

I would not say one is more versatile than the other, except that in some sense IB is intended primarily for Irish music and OM for a wider range. This is really a fuzzy area. It depends on what you want to play, what kind of sound you prefer, etc.

Both IB and OM can "withstand" the same tunings, it's just about the tendencies on usage between the two.

What do you want to do musically?

[Sweetpea44]

Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing. Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels.

Was thinking of picking up either a used OM or IB, so that's what started my confusion as to which to play around with. Do you all recommend any brands/models for beginners?

[Eddie Sheehy]

There's always something in the Classifieds. Whether you use it for accompaniment, melody, cross-picking, vocal backup, or blues solos try everything on it. There are no rules and no limitations. Check out Zan McLeod DVD for IB accompaniment, Tim O'Brien for Octave Mandolin melodies, Sarah Jarosz for vocal backup, and Beth Patterson for everything else...

[allenhopkins]

Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing. Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels. Was thinking of picking up either a used OM or IB, so that's what started my confusion as to which to play around with. Do you all recommend any brands/models for beginners?

Difference between "octave mandolin" and "Irish bouzouki" is vague. Mostly scale length, but even that's not consistent. Many people playing "bouzouki" in Celtic music just tune it GDAE like an octave mandolin. And you can play Celtic/Irish music on either, in either GDAD or GDAE tuning.

Trinity College instruments, distributed by Saga, get pretty consistent good marks as introductory-level OM's and bouzoukis. They make both: their bouzouki has a 26 3/4 inch scale, their OM is spec-ed at 20 3/8 inches. Major scale length discrepancy! And the OM is pretty short-scale as OM's go; Petersen, for example, makes a 22 1/2 inch scale, and my Flatiron 3K is around 23 inches.

[zoukboy]

2. Irish Bouzouki lower courses are more often tuned in octave pairs, whereas OM are more usually tuned in unison.

I have to beg to differ here . :-) Lower courses on Irish bouzouki are *sometimes* tuned in octaves, but we are definitely in the minority. The VAST majority of players tune the bass courses to unisons. That, along with Johnny Moynihann's G2D3A3D4 tuning, actually defined the instrument. The subject of octave bass pairs has gained some attention on this forum lately perhaps suggesting that the practice is more common than it actually is.

[zoukboy]

I'm a little confused as to the differences between these two instruments. I've read that the tuning for the IB is GDAD but some people tune it like the OM. If they can be tuned the same then what are the differences between these two instruments? Also, for the GDAD tuning, is the second set of D strings tuned an octave higher than the first or something else? Thanks!

I will agree with others that there is a grey area. The physical difference is mostly due to scale length: one probably wouldn't call a 21"-23" scale instrument an "Irish bouzouki." Neither would a 25"-27" instrument probably be called an "octave mandolin." But more than the size difference is the issue of tuning. By far the most customary tuning for IB is G2D3A3D4, and all unison pairs is the overwhelming preference. There is also the matter of musical style. If you tune the instrument an octave below mandolin and approach it like a mando then you might as well call it an "octave mandolin." If you tune GDAD and your frame of reference is the plethora of Irish, Scots, English, Breton, Spanish, and Nordic players/traditions then bouzouki is the "preferred nomenclature" (to borrow a phrase from "The Big Lebowski"). These different tunings have practical differences but they also represent different modes of thinking, but the idea that GDAD is "better" for accompaniment and "worse" for melody, and GDAE is "better" for melody and "worse" for accompaniment is a myth.

[Jim Yates]

I have an "Octave Mandolin", but I prefer the GDAD tuning. I treat it as a different instrument from my mandolins. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about the naming of these big mando instruments. I would prefer to leave the words "bouzouki" and "cittern" right out of the nomenclature unless you are talking about an actual bouzouki, the Greek bowl back instrument with 3 or 4 courses and, usually fitted with a deArmond pick-up or an actual cittern, a period instrument that is seldom used for modern music. Grit Laskin used to build "Long necked mandolins" that would fall into the catagories of bouzoukis, octave mandolins or citterns by many folks definitions. He called them all long necked mandolins. I've heard the names octave mandolins, Irish bouzoukis, bouzoukis, citterns, octophones, monster mandolins, mandothings... all applied to the same instruments.
If I tune my OM GDAD, does it become a bouzouki? If I put octave strings on it does it become a bouzouki?
I have capoed it at the fifth fret to play mandola parts.

[zoukboy]

I would prefer to leave the words "bouzouki" and "cittern" right out of the nomenclature unless you are talking about an actual bouzouki, the Greek bowl back instrument with 3 or 4 courses and, usually fitted with a deArmond pick-up or an actual cittern, a period instrument that is seldom used for modern music.

Good luck with that! :-)

[John Kelly]

Well, I'm interested in something 'different' so the alternate tuning of the IB was appealing. Also, I'm part Irish, so I thought it would be fun to learn some jigs and reels.

For melody playing, especially of jigs and reels, I'd suggest you go with the octave as the bouzouki's longer scale makes fingering the tunes quite a lot harder when you are trying to get a good speed in your playing. Conversely, I tend to prefer my bouzouki for the slower tunes and especially slow airs (I play more Scottish than Irish material) where the extra body volume and scale length can give the tune a better sound (in my opinion!).

I have mine both tuned to GDAE with unison pairs on all 4 courses, but that is to make it easier to switch around between mandolin family and tenor guitar and banjo (both again in GDAE).

[Jim Yates]

Good luck with that! :-)

I really don't expect to convert anyone at this stage of the game. It's just my "I wish they'd have thought up a new name for the new instrument(s)," but since they didn't, I guess I can live with it.
I recall a fellow named Gerald Trimble, whose playing I admired, saying that he figured they were all just variations on the same instrument and it didn't matter what name you used, but that was years ago and it seems folks have become more set in their ways.

For one gig in the mid 90s, I was playing only back-up with no solos, so I tried octave G and D strings. It worked fine, but I've never gone back to it.

[Sweetpea44]

Thanks for the replies. There aren't any local places around here that sell either instrument so I can't play around with one first. Based on the scale length, I'm guessing the IB would feel similar to a guitar (in how far my arm would stretch). I'm only 5'2". :-) Does Goldtone make good instruments? One local place recommended checking them out as well, and Trinity College.

[John Kelly]

The bouzouki does feel similar to the guitar for stretch, Sweetpea, but the narrower neck makes it a bit easier (in my opinion) to play.
My bouzouki is 37mm at the nut (8mm narrower than my preferred guitar nut width of 45mm) and has a 625mm scale. Here is a link to a slow air, Coilsfield House, I have posted on the SAW group showing the bouzouki being played and you can see that I am using all of my left-hand fingers in guitar style on this tune. The stretch is very much as you'd find on guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVnem7tbAAw

[Bertram Henze]

Based on the scale length, I'm guessing the IB would feel similar to a guitar (in how far my arm would stretch). I'm only 5'2". :-)

Well, if that is your arm's length, you shouldn't have a problem there

But seriously: the first bouzouki I ever saw was a big 10-stringer played by a slightly built little lass who had no problems playing it; that was some 30 years ago - the same lass (grown up since, but not in length) still plays the same 10-stringer today.
Another example of course is Beth Patterson, no giant ogre either.

I myself play an OM, because I came from violin playing and am too old now to break out of GDAE and violin fingering (in fact hardly ever use the pinky); when asked, I always say my instrument ends where bouzoukis have their capo.

[Goodin]

Here is how I describe each "CBOM" instrument:

4 course, 20-23" scale, commonly tuned GDAE - Octave mandolin
4 course, 25+" scale, commonly tuned GDAD - Irish bouzouki
5 course, 20-24" scale - Cittern
5 course, 26+" scale - Blarge

[Pete Braccio]

Q: What's the difference between an Octave Mandolin and a Bouzouki?

A: About two inches.

Where you measure from is completely up to you. As far as turnings go, don't forget ADAD as well, octave strings just on the G course, octave strings opposite from how you'd string a 12 string guitar, and any other tuning that pops into your head.

Pete

[CES]

Gold Tone is probably known more for their banjos, but, yes, they make quality instruments at an affordable price. Go for one of their newer OM's (made in the last 2 years, I think)...their initial offerings had some structural issues, but they seem to have remedied these issues with their latest offerings. I almost bought one last year when I was OM shopping, but ended up with a Weber Hyalite instead. I think the newer ones are named the OM-800+ (rather than just 800), but can't exactly recall at the moment. The Trinity College instruments are decent instruments for the money as well, but as Alan pointed out, there's a big difference in scale length between their OM and Zouk....basically, pick one out, order from a shop that does a quality set-up, and run with it!

I used to have problems with the OM stretch (think mine's 22inches), but since learning bass to help out the youth praise band at church it's been much less of an issue. If you try to play with fingerings suggested by John McGann (index covers first 2 frets, the one finger per fret thereafter) you'll get quite a pinky workout on fiddle tunes/irish trad!

Good luck...I really enjoy this instrument, but it's truly a completely different beast from mandolin, and you should prepare for the fact that you're learning a new instrument, not just playing your mandolin fingerings on a deeper-voiced instrument. As long as you realize this, you'll enjoy it!

[otterly2k]

Sweetpea, speaking as a person with small hands, I'd encourage you to consider starting with something on the shorter scale side... 20-22". Even if you do play the guitar and are used to the longer scale of the guitar, you have to remember that the bouzouki or OM will likely be tuned more in 5ths than not. Guitars are mostly 4ths. What this means is that even playing chords, you will be more often needing to reach longer than on a guitar.

Obviously anyone can play any scale... it's just a matter of adapting the technique. When I can't reach something, I figure out a different way to play it, or just move up/down the neck more. But I think especially when starting on a new (to you) instrument, things like an uncomfortably long stretch can just be discouraging and make it hard to get a real idea of how you like the instrument.

You can use any tunings you like and certainly can play Irish music on any of the instruments we're talking about. (I myself play a 20.5" scale OM which I keep tuned in ADAE unison courses and play lots of different styles including Irish).

I recommend the Trinity College instruments as a good place to start... the OM has a short scale (in the range of these things) and is decent. I have only played one Gold Tone OM, and that one was WAY oversprayed - the finish was super thick which made the instrument heavier and less responsive than I was happy with. I don't know if all Gold Tones are like that, but I haven't met a TC yet that was.

Good luck with your quest and welcome to the CBOM fold.

[Jim Yates]

Here is how I describe each "CBOM" instrument:

4 course, 20-23" scale, commonly tuned GDAE - Octave mandolin
4 course, 25+" scale, commonly tuned GDAD - Irish bouzouki
5 course, 20-24" scale - Cittern
5 course, 26+" scale - Blarge

Now what would you call a 4 course instrument with a 24" scale?
The only place I've heard the word "Blarge" was applied to Donal Lunny's instrument.