Loud Mandolin for Irish Trad Sessions

[fatt-dad]

then there's the recently-added Flatiron a5 in the classifieds for under $1,200.00! There'd go my money if I was hunting!

f-d

[Jim]

I've been feeling the need for a mandolin banjo since I played a friends a couple years ago. Resonator looks fun too. Gave my son a Tenor Banjo for christmas, had alot of fun with it before I wrapped it. The stretch on the TB tuned GDAE was a bear though and it was hard to pay with any speed. I think I'd go with a MB if I really needed volume, My friends has a resonator that seems to be Maple sounds sweet but LOUD. He has another with a larger head and rosewood or mahogany resonator that doesn't sound good to me at all.

[allenhopkins]

I've been feeling the need for a mandolin banjo since I played a friends a couple years ago. Resonator looks fun too...My friends has a resonator that seems to be Maple sounds sweet but LOUD. He has another with a larger head and rosewood or mahogany resonator that doesn't sound good to me at all.

I have the feeling that you're discussing resonator banjos, either tenors or mandolin-banjos. A resonator mandolin, like the National RM-1, has a resonator like a Dobro (well, not just like a Dobro), or a National guitar.

The word "resonator" has two meanings: one is the dish-like reflective back of some banjos, the other is the thin aluminum disc, with "biscuit" or "spider" bridge and cover plate, inset into the top of a Dobro guitar or mandolin, or a National guitar or mandolin. Same name, very different components.

Some on this thread have recommended resonator mandolins as being loud and suitable for seisun playing. Others have recommended mandolin banjos or tenor banjos, which may or may not have resonator backs. Nomenclature can get confusing.

[steve V. johnson]

I'll add my voice to the Arches Flat-Top. I've had two and at the time I found them unsuited to me (I often wish I had one of 'em back), so I passed them on to friends, coincidentally both are players with light touches and we found that they were each quite audible in Irish sessions, even pretty large ones. I believe they are listed at retail for $1.3k and are wonderfully built, simple and elegant in detail. That said, I've also found that as also mentioned here, pick thickness and material and playing technique can make a huge difference in mandolin audibility in Irish sessions.

stv

[Keith Newell]

oddly the authenticity issue is more a US concern than on Ireland

My friend Patrick ( in PDX, w the Chancers) Got one of Keith Newell's nice flattop mandolins.
it is very responsive.. [top is thinner than BMs I've played]

But for Mando like and loud there is the Mandolin Banjo ..
I have ones that have been set up with 4 strings, to double, 8va up, the ITB.
so the single string techniques feel the same in the right hand.

Traditionally this variant has been called the Melody Banjo..

The Tenor banjo has a longer history .. or maybe that is what it seems from the recorded Bands.

Dang mandroid I didn't know you knew that degenerate. I refrain from the other names that came to mind

[Keith Newell]

In fact I may see him this weekend.

[Jim]

I have the feeling that you're discussing resonator banjos, either tenors or mandolin-banjos. A resonator mandolin, like the National RM-1, has a resonator like a Dobro (well, not just like a Dobro), or a National guitar.

The word "resonator" has two meanings: one is the dish-like reflective back of some banjos, the other is the thin aluminum disc, with "biscuit" or "spider" bridge and cover plate, inset into the top of a Dobro guitar or mandolin, or a National guitar or mandolin. Same name, very different components.

Some on this thread have recommended resonator mandolins as being loud and suitable for seisun playing. Others have recommended mandolin banjos or tenor banjos, which may or may not have resonator backs. Nomenclature can get confusing.

Actually I was just rambling about my desire for a Mandolin Banjo and that the one I played with a Maple resonator on it was surprisingly less harsh than the one I played with a mahogany resonator. As for resonator mandolins , now that I've read this post , and a few others, I'm developing a need for one of them too.

[Clockwork John]

I've never had trouble being heard, or hearing myself, at a session, even with 15-20 other musicians, and I play cheap laminate mandolins. I once got to play with a guy on a 1996(I think) Gibson Master Model F-5G. He could hear me; I couldn't hear him...When I do take a tenor banjo to a session, I feel like I need to throttle back, maybe even switch to a lighter pick, so I don't overwhelm the other musicians... I don't know what I'm doing right in my picking, but I've never had issues with volume or projection, even on rhe cheap junk I own and play.

[RichardF]

Maybe the issue isn't with you. Suppose you go and find this loud instrument and are loud for one session, what's the betting that the rest won't go off and find something louder? Maybe its the session etiquette that needs some attention. If everyone is battering away as loudly as possible and not listening to anyone else then how is that a session? Where's the fun in playing in a group but not actually playing as a group, you may as well stay at home?
I know I've been to sessions like this in the past but I just play as well as I can, learn what I can, know I'm playing OK and get on with it with a grin if not a smile.
Other than that take your small acoustic combo amplifier, turn it on to the required volume and play. Then wait for the Marshall stacks to arrive the following week!

[Nick Gellie]

Check out a Davy Stuart mandolin (http://www.stuart.co.nz/pagex.asp?bioid=4239). Be aware that the nut width is quite wide - that may not suit you.

[John Kinn]

Get the loudest teens or twenties Gibson A you can find. Tone to die for!

[steve V. johnson]

I'll add another bit of admiration for the Arches Flat-Tops. I've had two of them and both were elegantly made, beautiful in tone, and surprisingly loud and articulate in Irish sessions. I think that they're $1.2 or $1.3k brand new and of course less if one can find a used one.

Enjoy,
stv

[oldwave]

Sessions that flog at triple forte will always bury the mandolin. I use my RM1 for those but I prefer sessions that have a sense of dynamics where any decent sounding mandolin can be heard. Etiquette is a rare commodity in sessions.

[Bertram Henze]

Sessions that flog at triple forte will always bury the mandolin. I use my RM1 for those but I prefer sessions that have a sense of dynamics where any decent sounding mandolin can be heard. Etiquette is a rare commodity in sessions.

Here is one I attend sometimes. Watch the man with the doubleneck mandolin/guitar on the left on Cooley's Reel: the mandolin is audible, even though the acoustics are dominated by the accordion and the stepdancer. There is etiquette, a complicated one even, but in a genre where the volume of many instruments is not adjustable (try telling a piper to play softly) the etiquette does not involve sound pressure modesty - you're supposed to bring either a loud instrument and be good at playing it or bring a quiet instrument and drink a pint with a happy smile.

[Dagger Gordon]

Actually, how loud are fiddle players?

It's not clear to me that individual fiddlers are necessarily any louder than a mandolin. They often have force of numbers on their side in a session, but typically in a Scottish Dance Band situation the fiddler is not as loud as the lead accordion.
Indeed, in a traditional line-up of this type you would have TWO accordions, piano, double bass and drums. If you listen to recordings of this kind of thing, you would often have to listen quite hard to hear the fiddle (although it's true that with modern pick-ups things might be a bit different).
But (particularly in the Dance Band example) it can make for a good COMBINATION. It's not all about seeing who can be louder.

From my own experience, it can be quite hard to get fiddlers loud enough on stage if they are playing through a microphone. On the other hand I have always been very impressed at how good bluegrass mandolin players seem to make themselves audible on stage. A lot of this comes down to how well the player can project what he/ she is doing.

[steve V. johnson]

http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/63241

[foldedpath]

Actually, how loud are fiddle players?

It's not clear to me that individual fiddlers are necessarily any louder than a mandolin. They often have force of numbers on their side in a session, but typically in a Scottish Dance Band situation the fiddler is not as loud as the lead accordion.

It's that "force of numbers" thing, at least over here in the USA sessions I've been to. Add a couple of small pipes or border pipes, in the mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish sessions. It might be a regional thing out here in the Pacific Northwest, where fiddles tend to outnumber other types of instruments in all sorts of traditional settings, including OldTime jams. It's just a fiddle-heavy region, for some reason. Fiddlers are often the strongest players with the deeper repertoires, so they usually end up being the ones who initiate and lead local sessions. Often the session leader also teaches violin, so they end up dragging their students to the session... more fiddlers to cope with. It's still fun, but sometimes I wish there was less of a "wall of fiddles" at local sessions.

In my experience, three to four fiddlers is the threshold where any mandolin starts to be heard only as a "plink" on the attack of the notes of the tune. I have a fairly loud Lebeda F5 archtop, but that "plink" is all I hear, once enough fiddlers and pipers get going.

And that's okay, for me. As long as that little initial attack can be heard, I don't feel a need to hear the full development of the mandolin tone. Go too far down that path, and you end up on a tenor banjo.


Or a resonator mandolin, I guess. But I just like the tone of my F5 better than the resonators I've heard, so I'll live with a little less volume. The main thing is to have enough volume to kick off a new set of tunes during a pause in the session, and the Lebeda has plenty of volume for that.

[allenhopkins]

Part of the problem is that fiddle and mandolin play in the same range, and are often doubling the melody, so if there are two fiddles and one mandolin, you basically hear "fiddle."

Try a harmony, or play chords for a bit, and the mandolin's voice may emerge.

[foldedpath]

Try a harmony, or play chords for a bit, and the mandolin's voice may emerge.

Yes, but that's very session-dependent. I shift to chords sometimes in the local mixed Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session, especially when the pipers are playing one of their extended sets. Harmony is a bit more accepted in the Scottish tradition, I think.

A pure drop Irish session might be less receptive to a mandolin playing chords or counter-melodies, partly because (as you mention above), it's in the same range as the fiddle where it can be distracting. I usually avoid playing chords in hardcore Irish sessions, and just sit out the tune if I don't know it.

Your mileage may vary, based on whatever the protocol is at your local session, but I think as a general rule, it's best to tread softly in the area of chord-playing unless you know it's good local practice. Playing unison melody on the other hand, is always good practice.

[Bertram Henze]

As long as that little initial attack can be heard, I don't feel a need to hear the full development of the mandolin tone. Go too far down that path, and you end up on a tenor banjo.

Exactly this. I've been down there a long time, and it's hard to crawl that path back up again.

[Bren]

I have a resonator mandolin, a single cone nickel-plated brass-bodied Donmo. It's great fun, but I'm wary of how I use it in sessions, and which sessions I use it in.

Pros:
1. It's loud. That's its main quality really. However the sound is not unpleasant.
2. being loud, you can play with a bit more finesse (if you angle it so you can hear yourself properly).
3. It's quite distinctive-looking and sounding and attracts attention. People will talk to you.

Cons:
1. It's not great for practising quietly at home. In fact I was trying to record a video to demonstrate for you when I got a shout from my beloved to "stop *&$£# playing that #$%£&** mandolin ". That and my software crashed. Lucky you.
2. Unlike a wooden instrument, no sound comes out the back. It all goes out the front, and projects quite far forward. Pity the person sitting opposite you.
3. It's quite distinctive-looking and sounding and attracts attention. People will talk to you ... if you're lucky. If not, they'll talk about you. Really, there's nowhere to hide with an instrument like this, so maybe not the best if you're unsure of yourself.
The session has to get quite noisy before you can blend in.

Lately I've been reverting more to paying my normal wooden mandolin in sessions. It's developed in tone and volume over the years. I've also found that fitting a Tone-Gard™ helps the volume and tone by allowing the back to vibrate more freely, or at least it helps me hear it better.

I also pay attention to where I sit, if it can be helped. A wood-panelled corner at your back, so you can project out, perhaps sitting a bit higher than the other musicians, really makes a difference. If I get to lead off a tune, I sometimes stand up, which also helps the sound stand out.

[Bren]

Aha, I managed to record a hasty video without waking anyone up it seems.

This is the Donmo, played as quietly as possible with a thin pick. Even so, you have to "dig in " a bit to "drive" the resonator cone ....

[Loretta Callahan]

I stick to the melody, with a few double stops. Been said, by folks I respect, that mandolin chords take the Irish right out of the session. I'd rather not be heard than yank away the Irish simply to be loud.

Your mileage may vary, based on whatever the protocol is at your local session, but I think as a general rule, it's best to tread softly in the area of chord-playing unless you know it's good local practice. Playing unison melody on the other hand, is always good practice.

Also, I'm working with a couple of folks here on the cafe and it looks like I'm buying a louder mandolin than the ones I own ~ from one of them ~ in a couple of months. I'll keep folks posted.

[JeffD]

A pure drop Irish session might be less receptive to a mandolin playing chords or counter-melodies, partly because (as you mention above), it's in the same range as the fiddle where it can be distracting. ... Your mileage may vary, based on whatever the protocol is at your local session, but I think as a general rule, it's best to tread softly in the area of chord-playing unless you know it's good local practice. Playing unison melody on the other hand, is always good practice.

Amen

[George R. Lane]

There is always the Commodium; http://keithcary.com/Keith%20Cary/Commodium.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQy1om865I0