Loud Mandolin for Irish Trad Sessions

[Loretta Callahan]

Well, I'm at the point where my playing doesn't totally suck and I'm up to speed on several regularly played session tunes. Soooo, it's time for a loud mandolin. This is loud to be heard among fiddles, whistles and such .... not choppy/F5 Bluegrass loud. It's very different. I play melody with the occasional double stop or triad ... not chords.

I looked at previous threads on loud mandolins, but they're pretty old and not real specific to my needs, so the previous thread suggesters may be appeased.

Word on the street is "get a Gibson". Marla Fibish plays her Grandpa's old oval hole Gibson, and it's loud. Should I look for an old Gibson? Should I get a tenor banjo? Getting an octave mandola or bouzouki doesn't speak to me, even though I love how they sound when played by others.

My Muddy M4 sounds divine, but even with a tone gard, it's not loud enough. Fiddles and whistles are loud; really loud. Plus, as some folks know, it's not super easy for me to get around to try different mandolins, but I can get to a few music stores near my hood.

My price range is $1,000 to $1,200. Advice I've received here is always abundant and awesome .... I'll be ready to flip the switch on this new instrument later in the spring ... so there's plenty of time to process info. Learned my lesson by not being too hasty and take in good advice I get here ... and let it stew a while.

[allenhopkins]

You probably want a used National RM-1 resonator mandolin, which is generally Cafe-ranked as one of the loudest, and also one of the nicest sounding "loud" instruments. However, the used RM-1's I Googled were all around $1.5K, above your price range.

A mandolin banjo is another possibility. I know they get a consistent slagging here on the Cafe, but a good quality one -- Gibson, Vega, Paramount et. al. -- set up with a Fiberskyn or similar head, not cranked too tight, can sound decent. I work with Mark Deprez, who built his own resonator instrument, and it does not sound raucous or irritating, but it's always audible. May I presume to post a clip of Mark and me playing, with Bernadette Serrano on fiddle and John Kerr on mandolin, On the Road to Boston at a little St. Pat's get-together at a church in Honeoye NY couple years ago? I'm pounding out the rhythm on my Flatiron 3K octave mandolin:



By the way, note that John's old Gibson A-1 is nearly inaudible. John plays with a very light touch, but still, even in a small group of four instruments, hard to get it "out front."

Tenor banjo's also an option, but it means a significantly longer neck and different chord fingerings, if you keep it in CGDA tuning. If you go to GDAE "Irish" (actually octave mandolin) tuning, you still have the longer neck and greater "stretches" between frets, but you needn't learn different chord fingering.

Just some ideas. I played my old National Triolian metal-bodied resonator mandolin at a blues-oriented sing-around this week, and its volume would peel paint off the wall, but the sound quality was, shall we say, harsh. Getting volume without harshness can be problematical.

[Eddie Sheehy]

It's time for a tenor banjo...

[Loretta Callahan]

Yeah, Eddie ... you're probably right. Have a friend visiting me this summer who's gonna bring a tenor banjo for me to try out. That just might be the ticket.

I was wondering about a resonator mandolin, Allen, but wasn't sure if it was "kosher" for a session. Haven't seen one at a session yet, but hey ... I haven't been going lately because of the weather.

A 15 fret Tenor Banjo tuned GDAE might work for me. I can stretch a little, but really don't want to venture into new fingering for tunes, especially at my age!

Ah, the harshness factor. Good point.

Found this over at the Mandolin Store .... nice tone and only $700 above my price point.

http://www.themandolinstore.com/scri...idproduct=8912

Tenor banjo's also an option, but it means a significantly longer neck and different chord fingerings, if you keep it in CGDA tuning. If you go to GDAE "Irish" (actually octave mandolin) tuning, you still have the longer neck and greater "stretches" between frets, but you needn't learn different chord fingering.

Just some ideas. I played my old National Triolian metal-bodied resonator mandolin at a blues-oriented sing-around this week, and its volume would peel paint off the wall, but the sound quality was, shall we say, harsh. Getting volume without harshness can be problematical.

As always, lots of good suggestions to ponder. Thanks!!

[Dagger Gordon]

The Resonator Mandolin from The Mandolin Store (see link above) sounds remarkably like an ordinary mandolin judging by the sound clip.

Tenor banjos are great but they are a different sound and do involve more of a stretch. If you're not sure about that, you are probably as well to get the Resonator. I can't say if it would be considered 'kosher' or not, but from a practical point of view it seems to me to be ideal for an Irish session.

You could also play with a lighter pick if you were concerned about being TOO loud, which might possibly even improve your playing in an Irish context - maybe easier to play triplets for example.

As to what is 'kosher'? To my mind it's not the appearance of the instrument but its compatibility with the other instruments that's important.

[Bertram Henze]

Tenor banjo? Well that's the last resort, but before you fall for the dark side, there's some other things to try:

- picking motion: a good swing with a power grip, hitting the string in a high-speed flyby makes a much louder tone than the usual bashfully tiptoed fingertip plucking many mandolinists do.

- pick: forget about the usual thick round & stubby-flubby picks most BG players prefer (for a "woody tone", i.e. losing overtones). A thin, sharp pick will bring out those high brilliant frequencies the mandolin is good at, and which sting through the noise right into the listeners' ears where it hurts them the most.

- picking in the so-called sweet spot, i.e. far away from the bridge, makes for a sweet tone that is bravely and pathetically drowning in a session. Try picking nearer to the bridge: more overtones, more high frequencies (see above).

If all of that does not help, get a louder mandolin. If that does not help, THEN get a banjo.
Just for the record: I've been a TB player myself for years, until I repented and switched to the OM and had to find out all those weird ways to enhance volume described above.

[Shelagh Moore]

I was wondering about a resonator mandolin, Allen, but wasn't sure if it was "kosher" for a session. Haven't seen one at a session yet

A National RM-1 reso is my principal session mandolin and I've never had anything but positive comments. I use flatwound strings which further sweeten the sound and play it lightly but even then it's plenty loud and has a brilliant dynamic range. If I could afford a second mandolin for sessions I would probably go for a Gibson A oval hole. I've played a couple of those that have projected very well.

Oh... and I do play tenor b*nj* too! (always an option of course)

[Ray(T)]

A National RM-1 reso is my principal session mandolin and I've never had anything but positive comments.

Much the same 250 miles further south in Derbyshire but I can't speak for sessions in the USA. I find that the RM-1 sounds better when played with other instruments. The only problem I've had is that everyone wants a go!

[8ch(pl)]

I am suprised that your M-4 doesn't cut it as far asd volume goes. I have been playing a Mid Missouri M-4 in a church band for years, it can be heard over electric guitars, digital drums, etc and it is not amplified.

Perhaps the people on this site should resist their prejudice against Mandolin banjos to keep members from going to tenor

[bruce.b]

I think the National RM-1 is the way to go if you can swing the price. Another really neat choice would be a Mandonator made by Topher Gayle. I'd love to try fingerpicking one of these.

http://www.tophergayle.com/luthier/m...ors/index.html

[Randi Gormley]

Maybe you need something just a little different in the tone department. I've noticed that my bandolim (the 1980s one I bought for $85) can be heard even over boxes just because the sound is so different -- more bell-like -- and I know this because I've gotten comments from fiddlers, whistlers and even the box players who say they can hear me playing during sessions even when I think I'm being fairly quiet.

[kmmando]

in mc classifieds right now.

[Bertram Henze]

Maybe you need something just a little different in the tone department. I've noticed that my bandolim (the 1980s one I bought for $85) can be heard even over boxes just because the sound is so different

Reminds me of one occasion when I thought "why is my OM sounding so percussive tonight?"; then realized it was the banjo playing along with me, oh well.
But then, a good session is one where the whole bunch of instruments works together like one instrument. You should make a difference, but a constructive one, of course.

[liestman]

I play my National RM1 all the time in Irish trad sessions around Texas. It sometimes gets an odd look until they hear it (with Jazzmando flatwounds) and then they relax and enjoy/encourage it. I think if you went in and started hammering on it, being obnoxious, they would take offense, but that is the same as any other instrument really. I also use my old Gibson for slightly smaller sessions and it is a really loud one. (And yes, I play TB as well.)

[mandotim1955]

I've used a Rigel A+Custom in sessions for years. Strung with J74s and played with a 1.5mm pick, it's plenty loud enough, especially if you dig in a little.

[SincereCorgi]

I'll throw in behind the RM-1 as well... it is not what I'd consider the absolutely ideal sound for Irish, but it is simply impossible to be heard otherwise in a loud public session. Besides, it doesn't sound particularly dobro-y once the overtones are getting sucked up in the cloud of fiddle noise. I usually just take a tenor banjo now though.

[mandroid]

but wasn't sure if it was "kosher" for a session.

oddly the authenticity issue is more a US concern than on Ireland

My friend Patrick ( in PDX, w the Chancers) Got one of Keith Newell's nice flattop mandolins.
it is very responsive.. [top is thinner than BMs I've played]

But for Mando like and loud there is the Mandolin Banjo ..
I have ones that have been set up with 4 strings, to double, 8va up, the ITB.
so the single string techniques feel the same in the right hand.

Traditionally this variant has been called the Melody Banjo..

The Tenor banjo has a longer history .. or maybe that is what it seems from the recorded Bands.

[Loretta Callahan]

Thanks for so much feedback and suggestions. I’m backing off the banjo option for the time being. I’ll wait to try out my friend’s banjo when she arrives later this year. Love your banjo blushing, Richard. Portland gives banjo players as much ribbing as anyplace else.

Time to actually hear a resonator in real life; the clip I heard certainly isn’t as harsh as a banjo. They’re spendy, so I’d have to save a bit longer. If the resonator sounds as the clips suggest, I think the “kosher” look is irrelevant, as you say, Dagger; if it sounds right ... that's the main point.

Might be time to experiment with different strings for my Muddy M-4 in the meantime. I’m working on pick changes …. and, as Bertram mentions, am moving away from bashful picking. You once posted, Mr. Henze, that mandolin playing was an “athletic” endeavor or something like that. I took that to heart and really workout now when I practice. The volume is definitely louder. I’m all about playing in the sweet spot zone!

I’ve heard that the authenticity issue of sessions is more of a concern here in the states as well, mandroid. I contacted Mr. Newell about purchasing one of his mandolins, but he didn’t seem terribly interested in working with me, so I dropped the issue.

The mandolin banjo looks interesting, but I’m still at the stage of wanting to be under the musical radar a bit … until I get better at playing. Maybe, in a couple of years, I’ll show up at a session with a banjo, mandolin, resonator and harmonica.

[mandroid]

Fwiw, I tame my banjo mandolin considerably by muting the head with a piece of foam , stuff or a old sock,
between the rimstick and head.
another possibility , aquilla's gdae nylon strings on a banjo uke. easy on the fingers , not as loud , but all the same notes..

I hauled a quite Non traditional 'Leo' Pocket Mandolin around with me on my Bicycle tour of Ireland and Scotland .
got to sit in, some places, had a good time.. most people were happy with what contribution you had ,
even if it was not Trad.

Triangle Tavern Thurday Nights, In Astoria, Come on Out.. Have some Fun.
Low Key sitting around a table.. swapping tunes..
or making them up out of thin air.

[fatt-dad]

You may want to reconsider an f-hole archtop instrument. I often play in large jams (old-time Appalachian music) and the my a5's do just fine. You don't have to play them like a bluegrass instrument you know and they do project quite well. My paddle head Gibson A3 is too tubby for a large jam. My snakehead A2Z is much better for some odd reason. I still think my Flatiron A5-1 is my loudest mandolin, but for now I'm carrying around my Cohen A5 (redwood/walnut). I'm a bit heavy handed on the mandolin though, so I can get enough from my Flatiron 1N to participate in a large jam. I just think a good A5 is the most versatile of the bunch.

f-d

[Michael Wolf]

I´ve played with different mandolins in sessions for years. Gibson A4, Flatiron A5 and then a A2 and A5 from a very good builder here in Germany. And I play reso tenor guitars. Funny enough the best mandolin for being heard at the session is the flattop the I play most of the time now, though the Flatiron is also very loud, but the flattop cuts through in another way and it sings much more. For my taste it fits this kind of music better.
But then I changed over to the dark side after all these years and bought myself a Gibson TB3 and I have to say that it´s much more fun to play sessions than it was ever before. At least if you like to play more in front at times, especially when you play a set and you have to lead. This never worked very well with all the other instruments, although I might have been audible.

[Loretta Callahan]

Interesting that flat tops and Flatiron comes up so much. I would expect arch tops to be the loudest at sessions. I'll check some out this spring. This will be a fun thread to check out again in a year or so after I've done some purchasing and experimenting! The cafe crowd never fails to come through with great information!

[fatt-dad]

I have no problem taking my Flatiron 1N (pancake) to a large jam.

[Gerry Cassidy]

I can add to the Flat Top parade; The loudest, yet very sweet sounding mando I've owned is my Arches FTO (flat Top Oval). It has a sharp, cutting tone. I currently have TI Flats on it and they really add a nice texture to the tone.

I don't play very many seisiuns anymore, but when I do it is the one that comes with me.

[Mike Snyder]

The OP's price range aside, a good F5 is an exellent session instrument. An infamous music camp at Winfield plays a wide range of genres, but is the most ITM camp there. Carp- The Leader plays an F5, his minion and partner in merriment Mike Black plays an F5, multiple F5's, A's,F4's, flat-top ovals. You can hear the F5's. It's real nice that 'ol Bill played an F5, he sounded fine. They sound pretty good on a schottische or a jig, too.