Four Potatoes, Professor

[Paul Kotapish]

The discussion of whether Pete Seeger coined the expression "hammer-on" got me thinking about the question of when now-common phrases first entered the parlance.

When I first started learning fiddle tunes back in the early '70s, I heard someone call the little two-bar fiddle kickoff (naaa, na-na-na, na-na-na, na-na-na) "potatoes," (as in "Give us four potatoes, Clyde") and assumed that it was an old-fangled, traditional expression for that universal little intro often used instead of counting in a tune. The expression was pretty common in every old-time context I played in back in those days, and I assumed its origins were lost in the mist of time.

Many years later, I used the phrase "potatoes" to call for a tune kickoff in a session with Jody Stecher, who stopped me and asked where I'd learned the expression.

I couldn't recall the specifics, but I traced my first awareness of it to somewhere in the Pacific NW. I assumed it came from one of the many old-timers who were part of the scene in those days, many of whom came from the midwest traditions, but also from Texas, North Carolina, and points south.

Jody claimed that he and Pete Wernick coined the term in the '60s as an experiment in the folk process when they were students at Columbia. According to Jody, he and Pete decided to come up with a nonsense name for that little bit of bow sawing that has launched so many tunes, and that prior to that, he'd never heard anyone call it anything other than a kickoff. They started using it at bluegrass and old-time sessions and just watched and waited to see whether it would catch on.

I have no idea how widespread the usage became, but I still use the phrase and folks seem to know what I mean.

Anybody else ever hear that term?

Anybody aware of any other manufactured or faux folklore that is now in common use?

It has occurred to me, of course, that Jody might have been pulling my leg, and that his story about inventing the expression might be the actual bit of folklore. I hope I'm doing my job in mixing it up just enough to make it interesting.

[JeffD]

I have heard it before a few times. In my community we tend to call it "four fer nothin' " as in "give us four fer nothin'". But about 50 miles northwest and its potatoes.

[allenhopkins]

Fiddle Hangout discussion; includes the Stecher/Wernick claim.

Common term among the NE dance fiddlers I know, including some who pre-date the claimed attribution time frame. So I dunno.

Interesting idea in the Fiddle Hangout thread: a pun on "four beats," or "four beets?" As in "Gimme four beats to start." "How about four potatoes?"

[catmandu2]

Jody's my hero--I first started singing Carter family songs with my wife upon hearing he and Kate. He's also active and very accessible on the oud forums : )

[OldSausage]

Surely from the children's rhyme "One potato, two potato, three potato, four..." Round here they are called "taters" of course. I find an 8 tater kickoff more common than 4.

Personally I always count sausages. Also, I invented the terms "kick-off", "break", "tremolo", and "B-part".

[Tim2723]

Four potatoes, four for free, four for nothing. I've heard and used those all my life and not once considered where they came from. I'd always assumed it was the rhyme, as David said.

The one that messes my band mate up for some reason is the countdown. Instead of "one, two, three, four" you say "four, three, two, one". I don't know why that confuses him, but he hates when I do that.

[OldSausage]

Next time, try counting 2, 4, 1, 3, and see if he explodes.

[Tim2723]

That aught to do it.

One night coming home from a show, we were stopped for a sobriety test. The cop told me to touch my thumb to each finger in turn, counting one, two three, four, then back again. I did it of course, and off we went. I turned to my partner and did 2,4,1,3 then 3,1,4,2 and every possible combination I could think of. Never mess with the mandolin player.

[Jim Garber]

I think three is a collective unconscious about descriptive phrases. However among us bowlheads, I believe that Eugene Braig coined the term "clown shoe case" to describe those leather cases that bowlbacks sometimes come in and I coined "boatback" for a sort of hybrid deep bodied flatback. Then again, I am sure that someone will contradict that one.

Usually, there is some sort of dated and printed citation that proves who is the coiner and someone would have to find an earlier citation to disprove that.

[Rick Lindstrom]

So, in today's parlance, "four potatoes" went viral.....

[catmandu2]

I coined "boatback" for a sort of hybrid deep bodied flatback.

Jim, if you obtain that bass sax case for mandola-case conversion, you're going to have to coin yet another term! Most likely--using something like colossus, rex, or ginormous-back...

Then again, maybe something more "familial"--since you'd be able to carry most of your mandos in it at once (maybe, "one-fell-swoop-back"..?)

[catmandu2]

I have heard it before a few times. In my community we tend to call it "four fer nothin' " as in "give us four fer nothin'". But about 50 miles northwest and its potatoes.

This is an example of just how these things vary regionally: in my vicinity, we say, "gimme four po-tah-toes..."

[SincereCorgi]

That's interesting, I've wondered about that term since it always felt a little contrived and self-consciously 'folky' to me. 'Potatoes' is in general use in my part of the bay area though, though, particularly among the boomer-ish generation. I don't know if younger people use it as much, but that might just be wishful thinking.

[Jim Garber]

I don't know if younger people use it as much, but that might just be wishful thinking.

4 curly fries?

[Dave Hicks]

Learned it long, perhaps in Ithaca, NY.

D.H.

[Jim Garber]

From a parallel universe thread (flatpicking) in 2009.

Another flatpicking thread in 2010

Potato lesson:

[TonyP]

That's very interesting Paul. Like David, the first time I heard it, when I first jammed with somebody on mandolin in the early 80's, I just assumed it came from there. I didn't even have to think about it. I would have thought if it was truly made up and not from anything else, I wouldn't have used potatoes because of that saying. Like rutabaga instead. Come to think of it, I've also heard folks say 4 or 8 andas, as in, one anda two anda....

[JeffD]

I keep hearing Briscoe Darling: "ah one, and ah two, and away we go".

[Beanzy]

I'd only ever heard it referred to as a lead-in or intro until I came on here. Although one guitarist from Tipperary I know calls it 'the giddy-up" that's just him.

[Justus True Waldron]

That's interesting, I've wondered about that term since it always felt a little contrived and self-consciously 'folky' to me. 'Potatoes' is in general use in my part of the bay area though, though, particularly among the boomer-ish generation. I don't know if younger people use it as much, but that might just be wishful thinking.

I've heard it used, but almost never by someone my age. I'm a relatively young guy, and I don't think I'd ever use that phrase, except maybe to be funny, and then I'd probably say 'taters. It just sounds too made up IMO. I guess now it maybe was...

[Wolfboy]

I've heard the Jody Stecher/Pete Wernick/sociology experiment theory from Ira Gitlin too. FWIW, on the Red Clay Ramblers' 1979 live album "Chuckin' the Frizz," you can distinctly hear one of them (Jim Watson, I think, but I'm not sure) say "Get those potatoes right there" just before a fiddle tune kickoff.

"Four for nothing" has been common parlance in the classical world for a long time, usually referring to silent visual beats given by a conductor. Samuel Beckett wrote a series of short prose pieces called "Texts for Nothing" in 1950-52, taking the title from that phrase.

[Earl Gamage]

Yes, I hear it around here sometimes.

[Bertram Henze]

Next time, try counting 2, 4, 1, 3, and see if he explodes.

Look here for the correct sequence of your choice.

[AlanN]

Also, I invented the terms "kick-off", "break", "tremolo", and "B-part".

Too wise.

A banjo man around here goes "One, two, buckle my shoe...". Trouble is, I always look down to make sure my fly is up.

[journeybear]

Not familiar with that particular turn of phrase, BUT would be surprised if it weren't somehow related to the method for counting seconds, one-potato, two-potato, three-potato, etc (much the same as one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, three-one-thousand, etc.). As I understand it, the reasoning behind this device is it approximates the actual elapsed of time of a second, when done at a normal speaking pace (whatever "normal" is). I used to use this all the time during my photography phase, measuring developing time in the darkroom. It's a short leap for counting for one purpose to be converted to another one. And "potato" is a darn easy (and fun) word to say.

BTW, it just so happens I had four potatoes in the fridge (baked) until I heated one up for breakfast (with a mixture of Cheddar and Jarlsberg cheeses and a sprinkle of Worcesterchestershire sauce - yum!