NMD: Kentucky KM-172. Is it defective?

[pete12string]

Got myself a Kentucky KM-172 A style Oval hole. Overall, very nice. The set-up it came with (supposedly set-up before it was shipped) has a lot to be desired. I'll need to do some tweaking! I did notice a "hump" in the neck at the tenth fret, where the neck meets the body. And there is a slight forward bow to the neck. Does this look like a defect or is it normal?

[allenhopkins]

So this is your Mandolin Hut purchase, and you're already worrying about the set-up? Hmmm…

1. Can't tell from your pics about the 10th fret "hump." Perhaps one of the more technically adept Cafe members will be able to diagnose.

2. A certain amount of "relief," i.e. concave curvature in the neck, is necessary to allow for proper fret clearance on the higher frets. Relief is adjustable, generally, through the truss rod. Proper neck relief adjustment is part of a good shop set-up.

[catmandu2]

Unfortunately, I've seen other lower-end Kentuckys with an "adjustable" truss rod...where adjusting the rod had no affect on the relief. Don't know whether the rod in that one is supposed to be "two-way adjustable," or not

Generally, a hump (especially in that location--which is not uncommon) is a big problem. Probably defective

[catmandu2]

oops

[pete12string]

Yup. I took my chances with the Mandolin Hut and as I posted in my other thread, I was less than satisfied with the "set-up". But, a set-up can always be performed. I've been playing guitar for over 40 years and know that a certain amount of relief is normal on a guitar, even a slight hump at the neck where it joins the body. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the mandolin and was wondering if this is normal like it is on a guitar or am I looking at a defect from the factory.

Maybe it would have come with a better set-up from the Mandolin Store, but it was still 70 bucks cheaper. Would I buy again from Mandolin Hut? Probably not. But it was still a good deal for a beginner mandolin.

[pickloser]

Hey Pete, I don't know about the hump thing being either a set up issue or a defect, but imo there is no need to defend your choice of where to spend your money or what chances you're willing to take to save some dough.

[lenf12]

So, how does it sound and play? You don't mention either..........

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[EdHanrahan]

To really evaluate relief and/or hump, the photo needs to scan from the nut to the end of the fretboard, where any irregularity really stands out in the reflection off the tops of the frets. But getting such extreme depth of field in focus probably takes some heavy duty camera skills (while our eye & brain do it almost effortlessly!).

... a certain amount of relief is normal on a guitar ...

Figure that, at half the scale length, lighter strings, & higher tension, mandolin relief is a small fraction of normal guitar relief, probably between 10% and 25% - as in "barely perceptible". Some here claim to be happy with perfectly straight necks.

While the described "hump" may not be uncommon on guitars, they're certainly not "normal". My '63 Kay (then $29.95) has one, but none of the other dozen or so do. Actually, I find it more common (assuming no actual neck warpage) for the fretboard to fall away beyond the body joint rather than to come up just at the body joint; sort of looks like a hump, but not really.

... but it was still 70 bucks cheaper ... a good deal for a beginner mandolin.

Yep, nothing wrong that 70 bucks or a bit more won't cure. Ya sure it's not too late to return it?

[allenhopkins]

...no need to defend your choice of where to spend your money or what chances you're willing to take to save some dough.

Except -- Pete asked for advice in this very recent thread about whether to buy from one seller or the other. Most of the advice was to buy from the other seller (Mandolin Store), which charged $70 more, but has a nearly-unblemished Cafe rep.

Pete went for this seller, and saved $70, but isn't totally happy with his purchase. His evaluations, quoted from the other thread:

Now for the set-up. Less than stellar. The action is on the high side. Intonation is close, but off. Bridge is not seated very well against the body - visible gaps here and there. I'll either need to do a full set-up myself or bring it to someone to get it more playable. Mind you, it's not awful - it is playable, but it looks like minimal effort was put into the set-up…
Would I recommend buying from [seller]? Well, for lower end mandolins, the prices are excellent. If you're looking to receive the mandolin with a "perfect" set-up, you might be disappointed (YMMV)…
I do not give very high marks to the set-up from [seller], so if you are more interested on the mandolin coming to you with the better set-up you might want to go with the Mandolin Store.

So, not a question of "defending"; merely trying to give a picture of the possible risks of going for "lowest price." There are sellers, like Musician's Friend, that make no claim of doing set-ups. You pay a low discounted price, and you get an instrument "out of the box," just as it came from the factory (other than any changes caused by the shipping process). But you know that up front, and take the risk, and assume the potential cost, of doing your own set-up work as needed, or paying a local shop to do it.

The seller Pete chose, however, advertises that they do set-ups; they even list the steps in their process. So the fact that the KM-172 he received has set-up issues, is pertinent to other potential Cafe purchasers who may be considering several possible sellers.

This is not a criticism of Pete for choosing to save some money, although the plurality of responders to the other thread, advised buying from the Mandolin Store. Would a KM-172 from the Mandolin Store have been better set up, lacked the neck issues that Pete's found on this one? We can't tell that. But when I asked in the other thread for some "Angie's List" feedback on the lower-price seller -- I think this discussion is relevant to that request.

[pete12string]

Hey Allen, you are right. I did ask for the opinions regarding where to buy from and the overwhelming response was "The Mandolin Store". I would say that I am okay with the purchase, having saved a few dollars, although I'll probably need to spend that money on a set-up. If I was spending "big bucks" on a mandolin, $70 wouldn't make much of a difference and I would probably shop at the Mandolin Store. Thanks to all who offered advice...

Aside from the set-up issues, the KM-172 sounds nice and open. A full sound that I think will work well for the old time country blues and rags that I plan to use it for.

[pickloser]

I'm aware of the advice he asked for and the advice he got. He's not required to take advice, nor once he chooses, should there be hmmphing over advice untaken. IMO, of course.

[pete12string]

I just want to give an update on my dealings with The Mandolin Hut - the outcome turned out to be very positive. Please see my "FINAL UPDATE" post in the following thread:
Builders and Repair - Adjusting a truss rod

[Robin Clark]

That looks like fall-away after the 12th. The neck is set at too steep an angle compared to the wedge under the fretboard after the 12the fret. The height that the bridge adjusters are set to does make it look like the neck may be on a little too steep (although the amount taken off the underside of the bridge will also effect this). If there is a lot of relief in the neck then it will look like the neck rises to a hump at the 12th, particularly if it falls away afterward. If you are not fretting after the 12th then the fall-away wont affect playing.

I was bought a very cheap Kentucky KM-140 for Christmas and I have to say that the neck-set was absolutely perfect on that instrument - so it set-up really easily. The truss rod was single action - even so, it worked perfectly. It can be difficult to sight down instruments with plastic binding because the fret edging files can carve lumps out of the binding and give the impression of a curve in the neck where one doesn't actually exist at fret level. It looks like the binding has been a little hacked on this one and that may give the impression of more relief than is actually there.

Having some fall-away after the 12th is not as bad as having the neck rise after the 12th. I saw a Loar recently where the neck was on too flat compaired to the angle of the wedge between body and neck and so the fretboard kicked up alarmingly after the 12th fret. That mandolin will never set-up properly unless the frets are pulled and the fretboard leveled and then re-fretted. It really should not have got through the factory q/a process.