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Thread: ASCAP/BMI

  1. #1

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    So one of the little places we have been playing is on hold until they get some kind of agreement with the powers that be to allow the perfomance of copywritten material.

    Has anyone gone through this before? Any info that would help expidite the process and get us back at that gig would be appreciated.

    Any homework I can do to help the clubowner get up to standard will help me and other musicians that play there.

    Been to the ASCAP and BMI sites already. Lokoing for personal experiences.

    Thanks,

    SAH

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    Steve,
    There was a local club that would tell bands they had to play original material because they didn't have the licence to pay for copywritten material. Most groups that had original material didn't have enough and would cover other material anyway. The club finally went ahead and got the licence/agreement so they wouldn't have to look over their shoulders about it. I understand that clubs even have to pay for having a jukebox.
    I joined some friends on stage at an old time festival last summer where they specify the songs are to be Public Domain only. Maybe that's the answer for your club! Do Public Domain songs only!
    Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band

  3. #3

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    There are several small venues in the San Diego area (Pizza places, coffee shops) who have had to stop supporting live music because ASCAP threatened to shut down these small business owners if they continued to have bands that played ASCAP licensed music without paying a fee.

    OK, I understand that song writers need to get paid, but I think there's a difference between a radio station paying ASCAP and BMI fees and a coffee shop having to pay because some guy with a guitar sings a Willie Nelson tune at an open mic night. #There's got to be a reasonable limit here. #Concert venues? Sure, they should pay the song writers, Radio Stations? Sure. #Clubs? #Maybe we should have a size limit like "if the room occupancy is over 200 people then it needs to pay a reasonable fee".

    But shutting down open mic nights and the ability of local bands to play at your local pizza parlour does nothing to promote or support songwriters. #Look, If you're writing a paper for college you can quote copywrited material as a reference. #It's called "Fair Use". You'd think that the publishing rights companies could come up with a "Fair Use" policy that doesn't crush garage bands and coffee shops under the weight of litigation and contract fees.

    For what it's worth, BMI is NOT harrassing small businesses as far as I've heard. #It seems to only be ASCAP.




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    M@ñdº|¡ñ - M@ñdºce||º Keith Erickson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    So one of the little places we have been playing is on hold until they get some kind of agreement with the powers that be to allow the perfomance of copywritten material.
    You've got to be kidding me. Are you for real?

    I remember hangin' out in bars and playing other peoples stuff and there was no question that we were not going to take credit for stuff that wasn't ours. We were just paying tribute to the good folks who wrote the songs originally. In one instance, I was hanging out down in Barbados and played "Broon's Bane" from Rush and played "Patience" from Guns'n'Roses in some bar. Everyone had a great time. It's not like I did the "Napster" thing.

    I can't wait for the day when local police departments start busting the local teens at battle of the bands nights over copyright laws.

    I can't believe we live in America
    Keith Erickson
    Benevolent Organizer of The Mandocello Enthusiast

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    Good grief.

    I try to stay out of these discussions, because they invariably end up heated, as there are radically different views about copyright laws.

    But let's be clear: No one is trying to "shut down" anyone, and this *is* America -- the land where people are allowed to *own* things, including their own artistic creations.

    Artists don't have to register with ASCAP or BMI. They choose to (or not). And if they choose to, then that means they want the agency to oversee the licensing of performances of their music. And it is just as much a violation of their copyrights to play covers in a club without paying a fee as it would be to record their material on a CD and sell it. Attribution is not the issue; compensation for use of someone else's material is the issue.

    And let's be clear about one other thing: it ain't like clubs are required to pay huge fees. The costs to register with ASCAP or BMI are modest, and are particularly low for small clubs. Lots of clubs (and coffee houses and so forth) don't like it, for philosophical reasons of their own. But they can blame the artists who wrote the songs, and the United States Constitution (which provides for the protection of copyrights), and Congress (who enacted the laws that extend copyright protection to music). If enough people don't like it, the law can be changed. But for now, it is what it is, and artists have the right to be paid for the use of their work, in a live setting or otherwise.

    For those who lack an understanding of copyright law, the United States Copyright Office has a tremendous website, written for the lay person to read. ASCAP and BMI also have excellent websites.

    For those who don't like all of this, I suggest playing public domain music. There sure is a lot of it out there.

    Mark
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    It happened in my town also a local coffee shop as well. For some reason I think it IS ASCAP. And I hear they are the worst about paying royalties to bluegrass artist also! I signed mine on BMI. They can also demand fees for music on hold.

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    Oh, and John, yes -- they do "go after" clubs where live performances are given. And whether those performances are "free" or paid is irrelevant -- just like it is irrelevant for all other copyright purposes. (You can no more copy a copyrighted CD and *give* it away than you can copy it and sell it; both actions violate the Copyright Act.) If you are licensing your material through ASCAP, you surely should know this.

    Mark
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    I think Mark pretty much said it all. And I did go back and review the licensing agreement with ASCAP. I was mistaken that not-for-profit concerts may waive the license, but instead schools, clubs, etc. who sponsor them pay a "blanket" fee to cover all ASCAP works they may perform. As Mark said, these fees are quite modest (though surely some would argue the definition of "modest"). That's all I'm going to say on the matter -- I really just wanted some clarification. I'm merely the lowly composer on this totem pole -- and trust me, it ain't us who're getting rich.
    John Craton
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    I don't have much trouble with the concept of copyright, but IMHO we've fallen down badly on the administration side.

    As I understand it, there are several major obstacles to 'fair behaviour' ... once again fair IMO.

    First and foremost is the legal support given to 'sampling' as a means of allocating performance royalties. Large national playlists are the prime source of sampling information, so unless your original tune is getting national airplay, you might not get ANY performance royalties. No wonder BG artists are complainging!

    Second, it is not ASCAP's or BMI's policy to sell licenses to offenders after they are caught. So, if your local coffee house gets 'busted', they will need to pay far more than a normal license. Instead they will be changed excaggerated rates based on 'a la carte' charges ... or go to court.

    Lastly, I have heard many tales of people attempting to defend PD material, only to have the administers argue that 'Keep My Skillet Good n Greasy' is in fact copywritten by Timmy O ... there it is on there books, recorded for the 'Songs from the Mountain' CD. A small venue will cave in to the fees rather than take the much more expensive route of going to court defending a PD claim for some guy singing folk on Sunday afternoons.

    The way I see it copyright law is pretty much about protecting corporate assets, not about protecting artist's assets. Artists don't choose to be on ASCAP and BMI ... they choose between ASCAP and BMI or the labels won't release their work.

    /rant

    - Benig




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    So what's a 'modest' fee for a small club? $100 per year?
    Who knows? J. Mark, oh great one, doth thou knowest?
    "Oh, no, Sweatheart, I've had this mando a long time!
    Don't you.....recognize the case?"

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    Benig,

    I really don't know what you're talking about re sampling. Perhaps you can enlighten me?

    As for the heavy-handed enforcement tactics, I have heard stories like that occasionally. There is probably some truth in them. But I don't think I've ever heard that kind of story first hand. It's always something somebody heard that somebody said etc. There is of course a big difference between a copyright that exists for a recording of a public domain tune, and a copyright for the creation of an original tune. But then there are variations that rise to the level of becoming newly copyrightable. So there is some "gray area" there. Sadly, when someone oversteps, it can in fact be costly and difficult to set them right again. There's not much that can be said about that, I guess. It's an imperfect world.

    As for "corporate" greed etc., well, it's all a matter of perspective. I certainly agree that the music industry includes some pretty obnoxious people (I won't name names, but a certain company that begins with "S" and ends with "Y" and has the letters "O" and "N" in the middle is a major culprit, imo <G&gt. But the way I see it, the world is changing around them, and well, ...the old road is rapidly aging, so to speak. The new electronic media, and the (forgive the metaphor, but I can't resist it) tsunami-like changes in music distribution that are taking place right under our noses, are going to shake their windows and rattle their walls. (Man, I'm getting out of control here.)

    Anyway, what I'm getting at is, I think there will be HUGE changes in music copyright treatment in the next few years. It's inevitable. Their sons and daughters are beyond their command (damn, I can't stop). So, I remain optimistic. I was just trying to clarify a couple of simple points about the reality of the world we currently live in. Your points, which go one step further, are well taken.

    Mark
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    Yes, Harry my Brother, I think that's about right. It might be a little more than that. It varies pretty dramatically depending on lots of factors. ASCAP doesn't post the fees on their website (I've looked before, and I looked again just now). I've learned of specific fees in connection with specific venues that I was dealing with, and I know they were fairly modest. I would consider a $200 a year fee fairly modest for a club that seats up to 100 and has live music at least one night a week. But obviously, it is a matter of perspective. There's some general information here:

    http://www.ascap.com/licensing/generalfaq.html

    Why do you ask? One of your, uh, clients...uh, breaking the law, or something? Eh? He he he.

    Mark
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    Here's a story about a song that you thought was in the public domain:

    The Clayton F. Summy Company, working with Jessica Hill, published and copyrighted "Happy Birthday" in 1935. Under the laws in effect at the time, the Hills' copyright would have expired after one 28-year term and a renewal of similar length, falling into public domain by 1991. However, the Copyright Act of 1976 extended the term of copyright protection to 75 years from date of publication, and the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 added another 20 years, so under current law the copyright protection of "Happy Birthday" will remain intact until at least 2030. #

    Warner Chappell, the largest music publishing company in the world, got the rights to this when they bought what was The Clayton F. Summy Company in 1998 for a reported price of $25 million. They spun off the company as Summy-Birchard Music, which is now a part of AOL Time Warner. The song brings in about $2 million in royalties every year, with the proceeds split between Summy-Birchard and the Hill Foundation. Both Hill sisters died unmarried and childless, so their share of the royalties have presumably been going to charity or to nephew Archibald Hill ever since Patty Hill passed away in 1946.

    If you sing this at a birthday party, you do not have to pay royalties, but anytime it is performed in public in front of a large gathering of people (like at a concert), a small performance license is required. This is normally issued in the US by 3 companies - ASCAP, BMI and SESAC. The Hill Foundation is a member of ASCAP. Companies that are required by law to have small performance licenses operate Radio Stations, TV Stations, Concert Venues, Restaurants and other Retail outlets over a certain square footage.


    And to add another coal to the fire, a pizza house where we had a weekly bluegrass jam session had to shutdown the jam when the local musician's union complained that non-union musicians were performing and "entertaining" the pizza business' customers. They threatened to picket the pizza business and the owner didn't feel he wanted to lose customers over the issue.
    OTW

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    I think it is somewhere in the $200 - $400 range, and I agree that is reasonable. Note that two licenses are needed.

    Sampling ... think U.S. Census. The idea that broader averages can be used to 'divide the pie'. So, say I get noticed playing a Gillian Welch song this weekend and the house has to cough up $$$ ... well, Ashley Simpson is still getting most of that because she can demonstrate more market share in this area. So niche artists can get 'averaged out', and never be properly counted or compensated. It's an imperfect world.

    Mark Wrote:
    "Anyway, what I'm getting at is, I think there will be HUGE changes in music copyright treatment in the next few years. #It's inevitable."

    I totally agree. I'm just frustrated that current practice is so out of step with reality. Greater distribution shouldn't equate to more 'rights' than a small songwriter or composer. But the need to track incredibly large number of playlists forced the use of sampling for averages. I think there was a suit over this - much like the U.S. Census - where sampling was given the 'go code' from the courts ... but hey you're the lawyer here.

    As the lady sang ... something's gotta give, something's gotta give, something's gotta give.

    - Benig




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    Oh, *that* kind of sampling. I was all confused, because way back when a friend of mine did a paper on digital sampling of music in rap recordings, and there has been a bunch of law on that kind of "sampling," so whenever someone uses the word I think of that. But yes, the sampling you refer to is certainly not going to be "perfect." But how else could they work it?

    As for "olderthanwillie," well, heck, if you wrote the song, you own it for the length of the statutory copyright...and that's that. As for unions, please don't get me started. Can you spell "pet peeve"?

    Mark
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Benignus @ Jan. 27 2005, 21:10)
    As the lady sang ... something's gotta give, something's gotta give, something's gotta give.
    Hey, Benig, is that under copyight??
    John Craton
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    "Hey, Benig, is that under copyight?? "

    Nope ... it's just a sample.

    I figured if I said 'Census' you'd get which definition I was using. As far as how else? [shrug] Maybe there could be limited secondary audits just for sufficiently small fries ... some manner of sorting the information again and this time letting all the BIG stuff fall out.

    - Benig

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    Yeah, I see. But I doubt it could be very accurate. There is such a huge diversity of what really happens in small venues, and so very very many things out there to be covered...lots of "little things" would "fall out" to the wrong result, and some would get unfairly overincluded.

    Really (ducking here), the best way to deal with it is probably to just eliminate copyright protection for unrecorded live performances. Let people make their money distributing recordings, and performing their own material in concert, and let the rest of the world do as it pleases with the material in live settings. Put a few people out of business, though, wouldn't it?

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    "Really (ducking here), the best way to deal with it is probably to just eliminate copyright protection for unrecorded live performances."

    That's the general direction most of musing on this end taking. But, It all get's so thorny so quick. It will be interesting to watch at least, and many of us here might even get to participate.

    Still, I sure hope my gig doesn't get squashed by The Man.

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    Many years ago I was an "investigator" for ASCAP. I was hired to check out specific venues , perform my "investigation" ad then file a report. I was very impressed that the company would go to those lengths. I should add that none of my investigations led to a court appearance - all of the cases were handled between the venue and ASCAP.

    It's a difficult line to draw. I'm a member of BMI and I appreciate the fact that they are looking out for my interests. At the same time I'd be flattered if someone was covering my tunes - to me it's like free advertising. But covering someone else's music without express permission or appropriate compensation is in violation of the law and can be litigated.

    I haven't been involved with ASCAP for 20 years but since the time I worked for them (part-time, mind you) I still haven't been able to decipher a "middle ground" that would serve all the sides of the story. It's really a case of 'danged if you do and danged if you don't.'
    Milan

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    Businesses have to pay for any music use, even playing the radio as well as recorded or live music. The songwriters should be paid, of course. The fees are usually reasonable, but many small businesses operate on a shoestring, and it might still seem like too much - and there are those who just don't want to pay anyone. When I have talked to ASCAP reps on the matter, the one thing that I didn't like was their admission that payments to songwriters for all venues - live or recorded - #are determined by radio playlists. It is quite likely that the fees collected from the place where you play will go to Michael Jackson rather than your favorite songwriters.
    You will also find that someone somewhere has copyrighted their arrangement of a public domain song, so the clubs just can't get around it. Somewhere on this site I found a link to a list of public domain songs, but it was full of errors - I knew who wrote quite a few of the songs listed, and they weren't old enough to be out of copyright.

    No one likes to pay. Several years ago, one church I belonged to had a problem when the minister tried to tell the choir that it wasn't right to buy one piece of sheet music and photocopy it for the whole group. Very good people, but they had a hard time seeing his point when it meant opening their wallets.




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    M@ñdº|¡ñ - M@ñdºce||º Keith Erickson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by
    And to add another coal to the fire, a pizza house where we had a weekly bluegrass jam session had to shutdown the jam when the local musician's union complained that non-union musicians were performing and "entertaining" the pizza business' customers. They threatened to picket the pizza business and the owner didn't feel he wanted to lose customers over the issue.
    I'm sorry are we talking about the former Soviet Union or the United States of America? I forgot what countyr this is.:angry:

    As for the other issue of closing down venues because of copyright laws, I would just say this," If you don't want other people to play your music, then don't publish the sheet music.

    Could someone answer this: When will the lawyers, cops, FBI and ATF start showing up at high schools to start shutting down the "Battle of the Bands"?
    Keith Erickson
    Benevolent Organizer of The Mandocello Enthusiast

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    LOL, Keith I can see this subject really gets to you. Sorry. Don't blame the messenger...I'm just reporting the facts, M'am.

    Re sheet music: irrelevant. If I write a song, I don't have to "write" it down; if I register a recording of it with the Copyright Office, I have an enforceable copyright. If I then register it with ASCAP, and you play it in a venue that doesn't pay ASCAP, you are in deep doo doo my friend. (Well, actually, the venue is.) Them's the facts.

    As for the Soviet Union, I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect they did not have copyright laws. You know, everybody owns everything, and all that.

    This is the world of capitalism, Comrade. Maybe you prefer some other system? No problem. It's a free country. <would insert emoticon for irony here if there was one>

    Mark
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    Mark, I've been out of town and just got back to read your comments.

    Well done.

    But I have a question you might be able to help with as you seem to be informed. #I was asked to play mandolin to accompany a friend in a performance on a cruise. #They listed it as a talent show and I thought it might be fun. #It was. #We had a great time. #Later I found out they were selling copies of the performance for $20.00 a throw. #I complained that I had not given permission for the sales of my performance and yadadadadada.....

    Here is my thought. #Not only was my performance being sold, but also the songs of Willie Nelson and John Prine. #Something hinky here??? #I'd love to hear your comments,



    What a long, strange trip its been.

    Dan Linden

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    Theres some good input from ya'll there. Would love to just do original and P.D. material, and we have enough, but is more of a "give the people what they want" situation. The venue is outdoor Florida sunset over the water kind of thing, and the folks want songs they can sing along to like Jimmy Buffet, James Taylor, Van Morrison, etc. Looking for any advice on how to get back on the stage there. Looking for personal experience overcoming this type of obstacle, like how much it might cost the club, what the rates might be based on, turnaround time on getting the actual license, what kind of fines might be involved if it is ignored, etc. THe info on the ASCAP web site is very vague.

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