The next time you are asked to play for free....

[allenhopkins]

...As a festival producer, I haven't been able to find the quality of entertainment that I want to present available for free.

If you could find it, would you book it? Would you worry that by doing that you were "taking jobs away from paid musicians"? Would you "treat musicians differently than other kinds of 'professionals'" -- e.g. if you could find someone to wire your stage or print your tickets for free, would you insist on paying him/her, but not insist on paying the (hypothetical) "free" bands?

Economics says we try to obtain the greatest benefit at the lowest cost. "Benefits" of artistic performance, in whatever medium, are not solely limited to monetary compensation for the performer. People like to play, and like to perform, and derive pleasure (benefit) from doing so, even if not paid to do it. Sponsors who provide opportunities for artists to perform/exhibit without pay, are not simply exploiters who don't "respect" the artists -- though in some cases they may be. In other cases, they are unpaid themselves (such as the little library concert series that I help run in Clifton Springs, where all the "door" above expenses goes to each concert's feature act); they may feel they're providing a benefit where aspiring and developing performers can showcase and improve their skills and talents.

Some of these church coffeehouses, community arts centers, back-room jams, et. al. would not exist if they had to hire pro or semi-pro, established bands at the "going rate." Andy's Pickin' In the Pasture, on the other hand, couldn't exist if it only featured amateur, unpaid acts; people wouldn't drive for half a day, pay a decent admission, and camp out for the weekend to hear a bunch of "recreational" pickers.

There are venues for pro bands and touring performers, where the expected level of talent may well be higher, where a respectable resume' is needed to be hired, ticket prices are higher, audiences are larger, arrangements and staging more professional. There are little neighborhood bars where local musicians get a few bucks' guarantee plus a tip jar, CD sales, and a round or two of beers. There are open mics, jams, seisuns, sing-arounds, living room get-togethers, house concerts, street busking slots, country dances, "music in the schools" presentations, recording sessions, library programs, seniors' facilities, museums and historical societies, local and regional festivals, camps, folk club weekends, teaching workshops, town concert series, charter boat cruises, public access radio and TV -- list is endless. Some pay, some don't, some do sometimes and not others. Some pay well, others pay poorly.

My first quasi-compensated musical performance was 47 years ago, at the Denver Folklore Center; it was "open night," and I got my 50¢ admission refunded after I played Victory Rag on my new Appalachian Autoharp. How many gigs since -- four or five thousand? Couldn't tell you. Paid, unpaid, that wasn't the most important variable. Not that I don't want to be paid for my efforts, and not that I don't feel somewhat "less respected" when a sponsor's unwilling to come up with my modest fee, preferring to take someone who will do it for nothing. But --

Recognizing the peculiar nature of music, and the other arts -- that they can provide rewards, to performer, sponsor and audience, that are not confined to those measured in economic terms. And that the real "respect" one enjoys (or doesn't) comes internally, from satisfaction with one's own efforts and talents. Not so much from the actions and reactions of others, who have their own motivations and criteria.

Long, rambling discourse, when I thought I had said all I wanted to say on the subject. Pompous, perhaps. Still, it's a complicated equation, and a controversial subject, one that may touch nearly all of us at one time or another.

[Beanzy]

I used to do it to look cool and pull the birds in Uni. - No money, lots of compensations.
Though sometimes we'd have to charge to cover hire of venues and even managed to do that sometimes.

Now the orchestras I play with don't pay me, I even pay to play in one to cover the hire costs and contribute towards the charity that organises it. We charge for admissions to our concerts, but that gets given away to charities, youth music projects, paying for professional seminars/ masterclasses.

So people pay to see us play, but it's not 'cos we're worth it' individually.
I'd feel awkward though going to hear a professional band or orchestra play where they weren't being paid. It'd just feel wrong.
By law here in the UK if someone engages you to work for them you have to be paid minimum wage. I'm sure it's flouted a bit, but in my experience there does seem to be a fairly well defined line in the sand between when you get paid and when you don't.

[Polecat]

Perhaps you should re-read (or read) the several posts in which I've tried to make it clear that this is not about "making a living" playing music. I've stressed that in as many different ways as I know how.

It's about being treated with respect, and accorded at least the same level of professional respect that would be given to a restauranteur, a bartender, or a waiter.

With respect, neither your earlier post, nor your more recent response, indicate to me that you've gotten this point; hence my comment about 'not understanding the issue.'

Dr H, this answer seems to me somewhat contradictory - on the one hand, you stress that your point is not about "making a living" playing music, on the other, you wish to be treated with professional respect. My understanding of a professional is a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood (wikipedia). I am not aware of any restauranteurs, bartenders or waiters who engage in their occupations for any reason but to make a living, so I would argue that a different standard applies. Respect can be expressed in many different ways, not purely monetary, and it would be a very sad world in which everything were reduced to a material level. Of course there are unscrupulous bar owners who "want to get something for nothing", but in my experience, they are very rare, and like the rest of humanity, the majority of them are normal, decent people with whom one can come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement - usually money is involved, but by no means always.

[Bertram Henze]

My understanding of a professional is a person who is engaged in a certain activity, or occupation, for gain or compensation as means of livelihood (wikipedia).

There is a point to that.
Music is supposed to be fun, and fun is usually not taken seriously. Professionalism is definitely not fun. You get professional respect for suffering without complaining, for carrying your load, for pulling your weight. Making anybody happy is not included in that picture.
Music is the rainbows, profession is the rainclouds.

[Andy Alexander]

If you could find it, would you book it? Would you worry that by doing that you were "taking jobs away from paid musicians"? Would you "treat musicians differently than other kinds of 'professionals'" -- e.g. if you could find someone to wire your stage or print your tickets for free, would you insist on paying him/her, but not insist on paying the (hypothetical) "free" bands?

Over the years, I have learned that when you hire anybody to do something for you, they need to be paid an amount they are satisfied with. This does not mean that I don't go through a negotiation process with the artist or their agent, but at the end everyone has to be happy to the arrangement. The last thing I want is for a band to cancel because they decided that they are in a pay to play situation.

My customers have high expectations that I must meet and the bands that can deliver the goods have long ago stopped paying to play. That being said, we do try to feature an up and coming band or two each year who have little drawing power but the audience will enjoy. Part of their pay is the exposure they gain and being able to add the appearance to their resume. They still need to be paid enough to at least cover their expenses to assure me they take the job seriously enough to show up and do a good performance.

[tree]

The point is not about whether YOU care if you make money at it or not.
It's about whether the NEXT guy who tries to get a gig in that establishment thinks his services should be worth something -- and whether you have contributed to the proprietor believing that they're not.

If that doesn't bother you, then it doesn't. But at least you should be aware of it.

OK, now I'm aware of it. But the reasoning is flawed, and therefore I don't give it much weight.

Suppose I am the next guy: why should I get fussed about whether the the guy playing ahead of me for free has influenced the opinion of the proprietor? 1) I have no control over the proprietor's opinion, and 2) if I'm not a good enough musician to change his opinion, then I don't need to worry about playing in that establishment.

If it's really about the money, then I have a price and I don't play unless they can pay. Seems pretty simple . . . I worry about the things I have control over.

[mandocrucian]

[Bertram Henze]

Music: just another dirty profession?

The Blackleg Miner

It's in the evening after dark,
When the blackleg miner creeps to work,
With his moleskin pants and dirty shirt,
There goes the blackleg miner!

Well he takes his tools and doon he goes
To hew the coal that lies below,
There's not a woman in this town-row
Will look at the blackleg miner.

Oh, Delaval is a terrible place.
They rub wet clay in the blackleg's face,
And around the heaps they run a foot race,
To catch the blackleg miner!

So, dinna gan near the Seghill mine.
Across the way they stretch a line,
To catch the throat and break the spine
Of the dirty blackleg miner.

They grab his duds and his pick as well,
And they hoy them down the pit of hell.
Doon ye go, and fare ye well,
You dirty blackleg miner!

So join the union while you may.
Don't wait till your dying day,
For that may not be far away,
You dirty blackleg miner!

[AlanN]

Last week, saw the great tenor man Benny Golson, 84 years young. Soulful player and class act who has played with everybody and has written tunes that have become standards - Blues March, I Remember Clifford, Staccato Swing. Backing him up was a revolving door of hip young players - piano, bass, horns, guitar - all students in the NCCU jazz program. Some of these cats were really great.

The thought that they all, to a degree, are striving to be professional musicians (i.e., earn a living) is challenging, to say the least. I wish them luck.

[Polecat]

...a revolving door of hip young players - piano, bass, horns, guitar - all students in the NCCU jazz program. Some of these cats were really great.
The thought that they all, to a degree, are striving to be professional musicians (i.e., earn a living) is challenging, to say the least. I wish them luck.

Me too. Last Saturday, I had the good fortune to be able to see Jeana Leslie and Siobhan Miller along with Jenn Butterworth in a small cultural center here in South Gemany. They put on a fantastic show, involving the audience in spite of the language barrier, and in spite of the fact that this was the last gig of a week of one-nighters all over Germany (anybody who has toured in a small van knows what that means). The place was packed... with maybe a hundred people, the highest ticket price was 18€, so it is easy to work out how much the concert grossed. The cultural center is a non-profit organisation, but still has overheads and staff to pay, the trio also have travelling and hotel costs, so what would be left for the individual musicians? I don't know the answer to that question, but one thing is clear to me - these professional musicians aren't in it for the money alone, as was also obvious talking to them in the bar after the gig.
To return to the point of this thread, my answer to anyone asking about booking my band (and the answer of the other two band members - we have discussed the issue) about what we cost is inevitably "What can you afford?" and the results are very different - sometimes I'll make more than I would doing a day's "real work", sometimes (seldom) nothing. On one occasion we played a gig arranged by the owner of a local bicycle shop and payment was in the form of a bike for the bass player - how unprofessional! Are we dirty blacklegs? I feel not.

[jaycat]

I have to confess I haven't read thru all 335 posts here, but I don't know if anyone has brought up the fact that "back in the day," free concerts were a fairly common occurrence (especially outdoors). The fog of time has clouded my memory, but I do recall seeing the Youngbloods any number of times for free. (Although once they charged 25 cents to cover the costs at Sanders Theater, Cambridge.)

[JeffD]

I think some of those free outdoor concerts were subsidized by someone or some company. The question is did the musicians play for free, or was it just free to the public?

[300win]

You mean that you can actually play for free ?.....I've always had to pay to play.

[jaycat]

I think some of those free outdoor concerts were subsidized by someone or some company. The question is did the musicians play for free, or was it just free to the public?

Good point, and one that I hadn't thought of, naif that I be.

[JeffD]

You mean that you can actually play for free ?.....I've always had to pay to play.

Yep.

[Polecat]

I think some of those free outdoor concerts were subsidized by someone or some company. The question is did the musicians play for free, or was it just free to the public?

That set me thinking; like jaycat, I had always presumed that free really meant free, so I started researching the legendary free concerts in Hyde Park, London, in the late 60s and early 70s, and found this. Lo and behold, Pink Floyd, T Rex and all those psychedelic dudes really did provide their services for nada. I feel certain that other events were organised along similar principles, but that said, one must bear in mind that the period was ideologically entirely different from that in which we are priviledged to live
The love-and-peace era, like the punk movement, eventually self-destructed, which was inevitable, and in my opinion probably a good thing - imagine a world full of spliffed-up leaders with little more to say than "hey man" or amphetamine-fueled spikehairs telling us that there is "no future". But that doesn't mean the ideas they had were all bad, and I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Gelsenbury]

The love-and-peace era, like the punk movement, eventually self-destructed, which was inevitable, and in my opinion probably a good thing - imagine a world full of spliffed-up leaders with little more to say than "hey man" or amphetamine-fueled spikehairs telling us that there is "no future". But that doesn't mean the ideas they had were all bad, and I don't think one should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No, and we have fairly recent experience of the downside of the currently dominant ideology. The political discussion doesn't belong here, but I think there are concrete links to some of the notions of respect, professionalism and the role of music that have been explicitly debated or implicitly assumed in this thread. Is music a way of life, is it a profession, is it a hobby? And is that the case for the musician, for the host of the event, for the audience, or for a wider idea of society?

[JeffD]

Lo and behold, Pink Floyd, T Rex and all those psychedelic dudes really did provide their services for nada. I feel certain that other events were organised along similar principles,.

I did not know that. I actually had no idea. I figure there was a chance they did it probono but was thinking it more likely not. Very good.

Times have changed.

[jim simpson]

I play a number of free concerts these days but they're only free to the public, we get paid to play.