The next time you are asked to play for free....

[Nevin]

It's new to me and appreciated.

Same here, thanks.

[rico mando]

This has been posted before . It is good though and thanks for sharing

when I posted this there where no other comments . it was meant as a explanation to the OP if there was not much interest generated to this thread as it is a great topic .

[farmerjones]

I don't pretend to know what it is, but if people want to make money making music, they need a new enterpreneurial business model to do it. We need to build this for ourselves.

This realization has in fact weighed on me for quite awhile.

[mrmando]

To the best of my knowledge, musicians are unique among artists in expecting to make money as an appendage of the food and beverage industry. I know painters, writers, dancers, sculptors, actors and none of them ever work in bars or restaurants.

Here in Seattle, just about every independent coffee shop is also an art gallery, so painters are most certainly relying on restaurants to help them sell their work. I've never been to a poetry slam, but there are bars and nightclubs that host them, although I don't know whether any of the poets get paid.

Here's a little tale I posted when this topic came up a couple of years ago, beginning with excerpts from an email I had received. Some of the details have been changed to protect the innocent.

We are looking for an ensemble of 2, 3, or 4 accomplished classical string musicians to perform pieces that they are comfortable with, preferably lively, familar, and/or Italian in nature.

The event will be held in the (swanky ballroom) of the (large well-funded downtown nonprofit cultural institution), Friday May 20th. The musicians would be playing from 5:30 - 6:45 pm.

I am coordinating a fundraising event at the (cultural institution) for (an international professional organization), to benefit our intercultural exchange with Italy and our facility in Civita di Bagnoregio, the ancient hill town north of Rome, as an academic center for (cultural activities).

Our event consists of a social period with a silent auction, followed by a lecture / presentation. We hope to have live music as an accompaniment to the social period. The compensation would be minimal, if any. But perhaps you know of some musicians that would enjoy playing at such a venue, or even students that would gain from the experience.

We expect 100 or more in attendance. Many (influential, important, cultured rich people) will be present. I am sorry we have no budget allocated for this. We will be able to credit the performers by name, and a printed thanks in our program. The performers will be encouraged to remain for the rest of the evening, to experience the short lectures, one of which is a sound artist with recordings made in Italy. The $35 admission, of course, would be waived.

Hm. He expects 100 people to pay $35 apiece just to attend this shindig, but there's no budget for the musicians? What this guy doesn't know is that I got a 780 on my math SAT.

I actually sent him a very polite reply, offering him a mandolin quartet performance for $300 and suggesting that since it was a silent auction, he could just put a donation box marked "Pay the Musicians" on one of the auction tables, give us the first $300 out of the box and keep the rest. He wouldn't go for it.

[allenhopkins]

It's not hard to make money playing music. It is hard to make a living doing it. I play about 200 gigs a year; nearly half are for seniors' residence facilities, the rest are schools, libraries, historical societies, coffeehouses, private functions. I get paid for nearly all of them, but never very much. Were I not drawing civil service retirement, I wouldn't be close to "middle class" status.

The majority of local folk/acoustic musicians that I know are in the same boat: they have "day jobs," spouses/partners with decent jobs (and health insurance), family money, retirement income, or some combination thereof. Their music income may be an important component of their overall support, or it may be just a welcome "extra," with the main motivation for performance to be self-expression, recreational enjoyment, or other non-economic considerations.

I once coined a little aphorism -- "Music is a wonderful mistress, but a lousy wife." There are millions of people in this country who play music and love it. I wonder how many actually make a living at it; one in ten? One in a hundred?

[Folkmusician.com]

When we get into the subject of paying gigs, it is really simple. It becomes business. You need to demonstrate that you will provide a good return on investment. If you can not show this, it would not be a good decision for a business to hire you. Why would they? It has nothing to do with how well you play.

With a bar as an example..
How many additional heads (that do not frequent the establishment) can you bring in? Will patrons of the bar order more drinks with you performing? How much more? Will your crowd cause the establishment problems. Are they going to have to beef up security? Do you emphasize the professional side of the band? IE, we are prompt, dressed accordingly, able to keep the volume at appropriate levels, carry backup gear, happily stop the music to make announcements, sing happy birthday, whatever, etc... Is your music a popular style in your area? If not, again, why would venues pay for it?

I know plenty of guys n gals making fair money performing. If you go in with good marketing and give the venue some numbers to look at (we have this many fans, this percentage of our shows sell out, venues experience this average increase in gross sales, we are going to distribute this many fliers, and post on facebook, Google, send out to our mailing list, etc.). The guys that do this sort of thing are the guys that are commanding sizable amounts for shows. Doing even a couple of these things, sets you apart from those playing for free, or virtually free.

Business first, music second. I don't necessarily like it, but it is the reality.

[jim simpson]

Last night at practice, our guitarist relayed a communication with a venue who had contacted him for us to play. He responded with an inquiry as to what the budget was and got a rude response that the venue owner would like to get paid too and that he wouldn't be contacting us again to play. Evidently the venue owner assumed that we'd play for free. I guess the fact that no renumeration was mentioned up front by the venue was a clue that he wouldn't pay.
I play in two groups these days and both groups play for charities that we all are willing to support. It's a never ending source of amusement to me how many venues think they're doing entertainers a favor by allowing musicians to play at their event.

[wsugai]

As someone mentioned earlier, this topic about playing for free has been discussed ad infinitum. And every time I encounter it, the first thing that comes to my mind is, "If my [choose your own adverb here] playing is a threat to their livelihoods, then man, they are in the wrong line of business!"

[TonyP]

This HAS been discussed many times, but the responses have changed(maybe imperceptibly to some) over time.

Overall I would guess there are very few who try to make a living from music here on the Cafe. Much less are weekend warriors, and way more are at the hobby level of sometimes playing with other people, or just practicing at home.

So these threads have made a world most would not come into contact with, aware of. The public is NOT aware of this. They assume you are a hired entertainer, being paid by the venue. Or this has been my experience. When they found out we were not offered anything more than maybe a beer and dinner(if that!) the reaction was always disbelief.

I replied recently to a Craig'slist call for acoustic music at a wedding reception. They had hired us based on live vid's on our website and they asked where they could see us play. I had no place to tell them, as there are no venue's locally that are worth playing at. The little local diner that we'd more or less formed our group at, had folded. The other places we'd tried were just not worth the effort and no fun. So why do it when practice is much more rewarding?

So casuals and weddings along with the occasional local festival is where it's at.

But pointing out this kind of thing, here on the Cafe, and on Craig's used to get a fair number of hostile reply's. Like, hey, I play for my "art", not foul money, or, well if you are good enough you'd get paid, or, quit whining, only a select few get to make a living at it(like that's what we're expecting???) on and on.

I don't know if they have just quit replying(when this is brought up here and on the local Craig's), or reality has set in. It only seems like it's gotten worse for the hope of playing a decent gig. And hopefully like other economic myths, it's starting to kick in that this present model of endless exploitation has done nothing but make the music you'll find in most venue's sound just like what they are paying for.

For the record, most of the open mic's here are on the weekends, and they are not run like an audition, as most places don't have any other entertainment.

[Dobe]

Heard a good one the other day; definition of a musician:

Someone who puts $5,000 worth of gear into a $500 car, and drives 200 miles to make $50.

[mrmando]

I actually sent him a very polite reply, offering him a mandolin quartet performance for $300 and suggesting that since it was a silent auction, he could just put a donation box marked "Pay the Musicians" on one of the auction tables, give us the first $300 out of the box and keep the rest. He wouldn't go for it.

UPDATE: Recently I took my fiddle and mandolin and played for about 75 minutes at another silent auction, at a friend's request. She paid me $40, but apart from that I and my tip jar were completely ignored. (I did get the opportunity to try out some cool strathspeys I've never played in public before, though!) Now I know why the first guy didn't want to put out a "Pay the Musicians" box.

[kkmm]

I play about 200 gigs a year; nearly half are for seniors' residence facilities

I did not even know about playing music for seniors's residence until recently. Now I am doing once a month, my group does it 3 times a month but I can only join them once (on Sat) as I am still working full time.
I have always played for various events for free (weddings of a friend's relatives, fund raising parties, church group gatherings/parties, etc...) , the only thing I got back as appreciation is a decent dinner (not counting the meals in the party). None of these are for profit. I do feel happy this way.

[oldwest]

if youre not paid, and i have not been, as lawyer and a muso, more often than not, the value and time and effort you put in are not fully appreciated. IE no good deed goes unpunished.

Truer words were never spoken. Been there, done that, in my own professional life. Those who don't pay you are actually the most likely to sue you if something goes wrong on your premises. There was a classic story recently about a woman who sued a club owner for injuries she sustained while crawling through a bathroom window -- crawling in, that is, to avoid having to pay the cover charge...

Next time I am at a venue where there is live music, I'm going to ask whether the musicians are being paid.

[Tom Haywood]

I can't think of a single restaurant owner who would agree to the musician's request in the OP (unless they are starting a TV show), but I can think of many musicians who have and would agree to this kind of restaurant owner's request, including some professional musicians. Therein lies the problem. And yes, there are two restaurant/bars in my area (that I know of) that feature live music, and musicians pay a discounted cover charge to get in to the bluegrass, folk and Celtic jams, if they have an instrument with them. Three dollars at one place, five at the other. If there happens to be a paid band playing that night after the jam, it's a fair deal.

[Ryk Loske]

A strand through this thread is ... if you're for free you're not worth paying.

In an earlier response to this thread i mentioned the older trumpet player that i back up on guitar and banjo to do early 20th century popular tunes. When i told John why i had no interest in playing in a place for free and he "got it" ... he mentioned a story from his past where a small jazz group played for an elderly group on a weekly basis for free. Then the group decided to have a social and hired "professional" musicians. John knew the group and their playing was not to the level that this group of free musicians provided. That was the end of their playing for free for that group.

As Allen and others have stated ..... in two different groups i too play for free at nursing and convalescent homes at least three times a month ... we're looking to expand that .... the smiles are worth the effort. I am glad to do it. But free for a profit centered establishment is a definite NO.

I am still tickled by the musician's response in the OP.

Ryk

[Steve Williams]

I've been blessed with a super weekly solo gig that I never would have thought of on my own. The owner of a local auction house asked me if I'd like to play for the crowd every Tuesday evening for an hour before the auction starts. The house has a nice PA system already in place, I sit and play and sing for tips and a great hot meal from a nice café that the owner has on site. I play whatever I feel like, do requests, and get to see a lot of country folks that I've met at local shows in the past. Wonderful place to try out new material, and stay sharp on the old evergreens that this crowd knows and likes. A nice easy midweek gig that the owner says I have for as long as I want to play it...works for me!

Steve

[Austin Bob]

I have no desire to play for free. I do however volunteer my musical skills by playing in the choir, at nursing homes and charity events. Gives me all the outlet I need, and saves me from being disappointed at trying to split $29 in tips 4 ways.

If you are going to donate your time, don't do it for a bar owner or a bunch of drunks. Try looking for a higher calling. Then pick for fun on a Saturday afternoon with your bluegrass buds. Even if one of them does play the banjo. :-)

Just my opinion.

[Jim]

The local pickin' circle is at the grocery co-op and is usually alot of fun. A local bar owner has invited us to move it to his bar which would be easier when the guy with the co-op keys is out of town or otherwise indisposed. But, then we are playing not just for the musicians ( we often keep it very simple for those beginners that come) but for others at the bar. If I'm going to play for others I would like to play my more complicated ( ie interesting) pieces preferably not with others trying ( & failing) to play along. I really don't mind the bar owner making a buck from the music and will buy a brew or 2 myself. Our group of local pickers has a pretty wide variety of skill levels with 3 or 4 of us that have or do play for money, a couple others that can keep up on some of the tunes. Most of the others just try to follow along. Frankly I don't think the bar patrons with find it all that entertaining and most of us play much more than we drink , so the bar won't get rich off us. So the end of my rambling is that I don't resent the bar owners trying to get people in their doors any way they can, but, I bet having the local jam there wears out it's welcome pretty quick over the complaints of patrons who would rather watch tv unless the few real players make an effort to make this entertaining. Which is WORK. I would play this same place for tips, but, not just invite anyone who plays to play along with me.

[mandroid]

I get together with a few friends , we borrow the room from the Moose lodge,
just to have a public place that anyone can drop in.

I didn't even get more than tip jar money in the US Navy "freeing the world"..

[allenhopkins]

...As Allen and others have stated ..... in two different groups i too play for free at nursing and convalescent homes at least three times a month ... we're looking to expand that .... the smiles are worth the effort. I am glad to do it…

Let me be clear: I don't play at nursing homes, seniors' residences, adult recreation events etc. for free. I get paid to do it. I don't charge much, somewhere around $50 for a 60-minute gig, but I charge the recreation budgets of the different facilities for what I do. I have played at some of them monthly for up to eight years, and play at others about 25 times a year. There are a number of local musicians who work the "seniors' circuit," and not on a volunteer basis.

There have been other Cafe threads arguing the pros and cons of charging these facilities, vs. doing it as a volunteer "good deed." I make no apologies; I have spent a good deal of time developing programs for seniors, I show up equipped with a small battery amp, microphones etc, I give good value (IMHO) for my modest fee. Providing this type of entertainment is a viable performance option for musicians who like to play familiar, singable music -- which I do. But it's not an act of charity on my part.

[Andy Alexander]

As a promoter of a bluegrass music event, here are some of my observations.

Groups that play for free or low pay seldom put in the time and effort to provide an audience with quality musical entertainment. In addition, they tend to treat the gig very casually and unprofessionally. This happens all too much particularly in Bluegrass music. It is no wonder that the genre is considered a joke by so many of the general public. I often wonder how many people have wandered into a substandard musical experience and have been turned off of the genre for life. Had their first encounter been with a more professional performance, they might have become life time fans of the music.

Festival promoters, club owners and other music presenters are the gatekeepers of quality. The bar needs to be raised in many cases for the overall good of the music and their own business. Spending money on a professional sounding band and making some promotional efforts is usually a good business investment. It is a buyer's market with excellent bands available at bargain prices when considering the amount of time, money, and effort that goes into providing a quality performance.

Performers need to be paid a price that they are happy with. To be successful an event needs to be a win / win / win situation for the promoter, the band, and especially the audience.

New bands starting out should usually rehearse for another year before playing in public. Bad first impressions are hard to overcome. Most groups starting out have to play for little or nothing to gain exposure. However, a finite time line involving pay scale needs to be set as part of the business plan. Too many bands are still giving it away after performing for years. If a freebie isn't a good career move, don't do it. While it might make good business sense for a regional band to play for free at a national caliber event, doing a freebie at the local coffee house is shooting yourself in the foot. If your band plays for a free pizza and beer at our local bar, don't bother sending me a promo pac and asking for $1200 to play my festival.

There are a lot of excellent bands competing for a relatively small number of quality gigs. If a band isn't committed to what it takes to give a quality performance they need to be happy staying in the garage or campground enjoying what they do.

[Charley wild]

When these type threads come up it is always of interest to me how little musicans (local, bar gig, etc.) get paid today. I was making $50 a gig in the early 70's! I played non pedal steel in a Country band and dobro/mandolin in a couple different acoustic gigs and we all got $50 a person a gig. From a four hour bar gig to an hour stage gig we still got $50 a person. That was the going rate around the area for most any bar band or musician. I don't recall anybody trying to get us to take less. Plus we had one heck of a lot less invested in equipment than bands do today. I think there are musicians in the area now that aren't making any more or certainly not much more than we did forty years ago! What happened???

[Ryk Loske]

To Allen's clarification ... and others doing similar things.

Part of how we as musicians do share what talent we have either for modest cost or gratis has to do with geography. The Northeast Kingdom is the poorest part of Vermont from a monetary standpoint. The nursing homes, convalescent centers and assisted living places we play are home to retired farmers and loggers and folks who have lived pretty parsimoniously. But ... the Kingdom also has been home to a vibrant home~live music scene ... tunks or kitchen junkets. The dollars just aren't there and the love of any live music is. In Allen's case where we're talking about a bustling urban area with a broader economy ... a modest fee is more than appropriate ... similarly for others here on the Cafe.

But when some restaurant or bar that caters to the ski or vacation crowd and is charging prices for food, drink and lodging way beyond what someone from the Kingdom could begin to comprehend ... then those places need to pony up.

Ryk

[coletrickle]

Andy not really sure I agree with your assessment. I agree that some bands playing for low/no pay are not well rehearsed or don't care as much about the gig...and I agree that if a band doesn't want to put the time in to be professional with their show or take it seriously they should stay at home or at the campfire...but that is a broad stroke to paint.

I know a lot of bands, my own included, that practice weekly or more, put a lot of work into having a good sound, memorize all of their music, write original music, record and work up arrangements to be the best they can be, who also don't have an economic area that aligns with decent paying gigs. Many of us can't hit the road due to work/family so we have to stay in our region and in many regions $100-200 for a gig is considered OK pay...especially if it is not an area where live music is a "happening" thing. If we want to play out we have to be willing to play for less than we would really like. It sucks and I wish we could get paid more...but we are not going to sacrifice our sound or put in less than 100% even if it doesn't pay 500 bucks or more. We just have a lot of pride in what we are doing.

My band mate has been playing for 40 years and talks about a time when 100 bucks a man was the norm and that was several nights a week. Dance halls, bars, social clubs and groups...they all had music and were paying. I seems it is just not the case any more. People are not as interested in live music...esp paying for it and businesses are not building a marketing model around live music.

Someone else commented about a new economic model, and I agree...but the flip side of that is that many of us are doing this on the side and making money or even breaking even isn't central the "why" we are doing it. That doesn't mean that we should denigrate what we do by not expecting remuneration.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Let me be clear: I don't play at nursing homes, seniors' residences, adult recreation events etc. for free. I get paid to do it. I don't charge much, somewhere around $50 for a 60-minute gig,... But it's not an act of charity on my part.

For that price one may say it is a charity on your part...