The next time you are asked to play for free....

[FLATROCK HILL]

As a promoter of a bluegrass music event, here are some of my observations.

Groups that play for free or low pay seldom put in the time and effort to provide an audience with quality musical entertainment. In addition, they tend to treat the gig very casually and unprofessionally. This happens all too much particularly in Bluegrass music. It is no wonder that the genre is considered a joke by so many of the general public. I often wonder how many people have wandered into a substandard musical experience and have been turned off of the genre for life. Had their first encounter been with a more professional performance, they might have become life time fans of the music.

Festival promoters, club owners and other music presenters are the gatekeepers of quality. The bar needs to be raised in many cases for the overall good of the music and their own business. Spending money on a professional sounding band and making some promotional efforts is usually a good business investment. It is a buyer's market with excellent bands available at bargain prices when considering the amount of time, money, and effort that goes into providing a quality performance.

Performers need to be paid a price that they are happy with. To be successful an event needs to be a win / win / win situation for the promoter, the band, and especially the audience.

New bands starting out should usually rehearse for another year before playing in public. Bad first impressions are hard to overcome. Most groups starting out have to play for little or nothing to gain exposure. However, a finite time line involving pay scale needs to be set as part of the business plan. Too many bands are still giving it away after performing for years. If a freebie isn't a good career move, don't do it. While it might make good business sense for a regional band to play for free at a national caliber event, doing a freebie at the local coffee house is shooting yourself in the foot. If your band plays for a free pizza and beer at our local bar, don't bother sending me a promo pac and asking for $1200 to play my festival.

There are a lot of excellent bands competing for a relatively small number of quality gigs. If a band isn't committed to what it takes to give a quality performance they need to be happy staying in the garage or campground enjoying what they do.

That's all fine and dandy for you. As a 'promoter of a Bluegrass music event', I think it's great that you have such high standards and I respect you for sticking to them.
Thankfully though, you are not the official world wide dictator of all things Bluegrass-performance related.
The group I play out with sucks. We are all pretty much talent free. Half of the players have to wear a hearing aid; most of the others have to wear two. We make the Mayberry town band sound like the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
It is entirely possible that there are folks that have wandered within earshot of our group and been turned off to Bluegrass music forever. And yet...there are those who come week after week to hear us and tell us they love us. I'm not sure why they like us, but I think it is largely because most of them are wearing 'Miracle-Ears' as well.
It's still a free country and we're still gonna play. I don't expect to be headlining any of your festivals any time soon though.
By the way, there are folks who have heard Bill Monroe himself, live and in person and still don't get the whole Bluegrass thing.

One other thing. Our open guitar case winds up with quite a tidy sum of cash most evenings. Every penny of it goes to benefit Autistic/handicapped kids. It's hard to do that in a garage.

[Andy Alexander]

Andy not really sure I agree with your assessment. I agree that some bands playing for low/no pay are not well rehearsed or don't care as much about the gig...and I agree that if a band doesn't want to put the time in to be professional with their show or take it seriously they should stay at home or at the campfire...but that is a broad stroke to paint.

I know a lot of bands, my own included, that practice weekly or more, put a lot of work into having a good sound, memorize all of their music, write original music, record and work up arrangements to be the best they can be, who also don't have an economic area that aligns with decent paying gigs. Many of us can't hit the road due to work/family so we have to stay in our region and in many regions $100-200 for a gig is considered OK pay...especially if it is not an area where live music is a "happening" thing. If we want to play out we have to be willing to play for less than we would really like. It sucks and I wish we could get paid more...but we are not going to sacrifice our sound or put in less than 100% even if it doesn't pay 500 bucks or more. We just have a lot of pride in what we are doing.

My band mate has been playing for 40 years and talks about a time when 100 bucks a man was the norm and that was several nights a week. Dance halls, bars, social clubs and groups...they all had music and were paying. I seems it is just not the case any more. People are not as interested in live music...esp paying for it and businesses are not building a marketing model around live music.

Someone else commented about a new economic model, and I agree...but the flip side of that is that many of us are doing this on the side and making money or even breaking even isn't central the "why" we are doing it. That doesn't mean that we should denigrate what we do by not expecting remuneration.

Actually, $100-200/man is not bad pay for a good regional band. The day rate for sidemen in many nationally known touring bands is often around $200/day.

If you mean $100-200 for the band then you are in essence "paying to play". This brings us to the question of why do you pay to play? Some people's egos make them want to be on stage so badly that they will play for free. Other people enjoy performing material they have worked up really well in front of an audience. If you are the former, you have a problem. If you are the later, the band is shooting itself in the foot. An established regional band that is giving it away, is unlikely to have anyone else in their geographic area pay what the band is really worth. If there are no venues willing to pay a fair price for your group, consider getting a room and putting on your own show. One thing for sure, as long as you are giving it away, no one will pay you.

No one is holding a gun to your head when you agree to play for less than you want. When our group gets together and plays for free, we do it in the comfort of our own living room.

[Timbofood]

When asked, just say "No." No need to feel like you are being taken advantage of, the door is as easy to walk out as in, isn't it?i feel like my band has been "Taken advantage of" and sometimes downright "Violated" by venues owned by people have worked with for years. Been used, had enough.

[TheArimathean]

Ok this might be a little bit OT, but in most areas is it legal to go out into a public venue (say a street) and lay out a hat or case etc. and play in hopes of people dropping tips in?

[Ryk Loske]

Relative to Flatrock Hill's post above ......

They come and love it ... and return .... because it's live .... played by real folks. And it didn't cost them a fortune. The tunks i play on a regular basis have some real stinkers ... both voice and instrumentally. Some may listen ... not unlike watching a demolition derby: "Where's the crash gonna be this time?". But they tap their toes and smile and just keep-a-comin'.

Ryk

[Andy Alexander]

That's all fine and dandy for you. As a 'promoter of a Bluegrass music event', I think it's great that you have such high standards and I respect you for sticking to them.
Thankfully though, you are not the official world wide dictator of all things Bluegrass-performance related.
The group I play out with sucks. We are all pretty much talent free. Half of the players have to wear a hearing aid; most of the others have to wear two. We make the Mayberry town band sound like the Boston Symphony Orchestra.
It is entirely possible that there are folks that have wandered within earshot of our group and been turned off to Bluegrass music forever. And yet...there are those who come week after week to hear us and tell us they love us. I'm not sure why they like us, but I think it is largely because most of them are wearing 'Miracle-Ears' as well.
It's still a free country and we're still gonna play. I don't expect to be headlining any of your festivals any time soon though.
By the way, there are folks who have heard Bill Monroe himself, live and in person and still don't get the whole Bluegrass thing.

One other thing. Our open guitar case winds up with quite a tidy sum of cash most evenings. Every penny of it goes to benefit Autistic/handicapped kids. It's hard to do that in a garage.

I'm glad you are happy with the way your band sounds and you that you have found a piece of sidewalk where you aren't getting run off. Keep practicing and maybe people walking by will throw quarters in your case instead of nickles and pennys!

[JEStanek]

There are difference in what you guys are talking about. Your perceptions and experiences are influenced by working with folks who a) intend to earn a livelihood through music or b) are performing for monies to benefit others or for nominal fees so as to not be taken advantage of.

Just because you do one doesn't devalue the other and you shouldn't make blanket statements about what or why folks do what they do. That tells us more about you than how to succeed in achieving your performance goals.

Jamie

[GDAE]

If your band plays for a free pizza and beer at our local bar, don't bother sending me a promo pac and asking for $1200 to play my festival.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know if they are playing for free or a low amount at their local bar when they suggest $1200 to you? How do you know that's not what they get every time?

[Andy Alexander]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know if they are playing for free or a low amount at their local bar when they suggest $1200 to you? How do you know that's not what they get every time?

I also play in a band and have a pretty good idea of what most of the local venues are able or willing to pay a local or regional group.

Usually, a band can only play a finite number of times in a given geographic area without becoming stale to the customers. If a group chooses to saturate the local market by playing numerous freebies it probably reduces their drawing power in the area. This makes them less attractive to the promoter when booking an event. Of coarse a band is free to make their own decisions as to where they play and what their fee will be just as the promoter can decide what groups to book and what they are willing to pay.

[Andy Alexander]

There are difference in what you guys are talking about. Your perceptions and experiences are influenced by working with folks who a) intend to earn a livelihood through music or b) are performing for monies to benefit others or for nominal fees so as to not be taken advantage of.

Just because you do one doesn't devalue the other and you shouldn't make blanket statements about what or why folks do what they do. That tells us more about you than how to succeed in achieving your performance goals.

Jamie

It is unclear if this comment is aimed at my original post. Obviously, as pointed out, everyone is entitled to make their own decisions regarding playing for free or little pay and are able to set their own performance goals.

I am sharing some thoughts from the perpective of a producer of a bluegrass event. The festival has been successful over the last 16 years largely because of the standards set for presenting quality local, regional, and national caliber entertainment. Artists that perform here are happy with the fee and other considerations they receive. If some find this offensive, then tough.

[JEStanek]

I don't think folks are quite seeing the ihflamatory tone of their posts. Trolling and flaming people won't be tolerated per the posting guidelines.

•Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution. A good rule of thumb is don't say anything on the forum that you wouldn’t say to someone in person.

Jamie

[Londy]

How about musicians paying a restaurant/bar owner to get in the door for a jam? Is that worse than playing for free, or is it different?

Why would you do that?

[stevedenver]

there is nothing quite so annerving as arrogance when unrecognized by the Arrogant

[FLATROCK HILL]

I think we'd all pretty much agree that monetary compensation for the work you do is a good thing. Whether it's digging a ditch or playing music in a fancy restaurant, it's great to be paid.

For me though, there's more than just the paycheck. I make it a priority NOT to work for people/companies/organizations that I fundamentally disagree with or just plain don't like. Sometimes it takes a while to discover the true nature of the person signing my check. Sometimes I can see from the outset that 'here's a guy I'd rather NOT work for...no matter what the pay scale is'.

[allenhopkins]

...I make it a priority NOT to work for people/companies/organizations that I fundamentally disagree with or just plain don't like. Sometimes it takes a while to discover the true nature of the person signing my check. Sometimes I can see from the outset that 'here's a guy I'd rather NOT work for...no matter what the pay scale is'.

Which is, of course, the positive byproduct of not having to play music for a living: we can be selective about where we play, and for whom. As an "old lefty," I find that quite a few of my "freebie" gigs are for progressive organizations, grassroots groups, etc. I'm sure those who have different politics, probably direct their talents elsewhere.

One of my more "downer" gigs was playing bluegrass at local McGovern HQ on election night 1972. Win some, lose some, get landslided sometimes...

[Timbofood]

I quit doing political things years ago! Long story which has no business being aired here.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Which is, of course, the positive byproduct of not having to play music for a living: we can be selective about where we play, and for whom. As an "old lefty," I find that quite a few of my "freebie" gigs are for progressive organizations, grassroots groups, etc. I'm sure those who have different politics, probably direct their talents elsewhere.

One of my more "downer" gigs was playing bluegrass at local McGovern HQ on election night 1972. Win some, lose some, get landslided sometimes...

You're right. Not being financially destitute (playing music for a living) allows a person to be a little more selective.
I wasn't really referring to political views though, as much as I was personal character. I was a bit vague I guess in order not to 'inflame' a recent contributor to this thread.

[Dr H]

I'm laughing out loud, reading through this thread. Clearly this is an issue near and dear to the heart of everyone who has ever tried to be a working musician.

Been there; done that; even got ripped off for the lousy T-shirt.

When I was younger and more idealistic, I did spend some time trying to make an actual living as a musician. I pity the poor fools who are still trying to do this; it's harder now than it was then, and it sure wasn't easy even then.

It's bad enough being asked to provide a highly-skilled service for someone, gratis, for which they expect to make money. But many and many are the times that you will also be gratuitously insulted for doing it; for not doing it; for expecting to be paid for your labor; etc.

When I was starting out, "open mike" was for amateurs hoping to impress a club-owner into granting an actual audition. Professionals had demo-tapes, or would do a private audition for the person doing the booking or (more rarely) the owner, prior to signing a contract to be hired for the actual paying gig. When I was gigging on the east coast I never played an open mike, because it was essentially free entertainment for a money-making buisiness, which was advertising the open mike as a draw for customers. My bands and my demos were good enough that we didn't have to do this. (And BTW, we used our own contracts, most of the time.)

Once upon a time, "cover" charges were specifically to pay the musicians. (Well, way back when, only non-drinkers were charged cover, since it was assumed that they had come to the bar just for the music, and wouldn't be supporting the establishment by buying drinks. But I digress...)

Then I moved to the west coast, and things started to go down hill. First off, there were reams of ameteur musicians and would-be amateur musicians who were willing to play any venue for free, at the drop of a hat. The Musicians' Local was an impotent joke. Despite demos and a press kit, I was expected to do live open mike auditions to be considered to be allowed to play for tips

I'll never forget the open mike audition (on guitar) I did where the booker sat through my entire first piece yacking with the guy who had auditioned before me. So I stopped at the end of the piece and waited for her reaction.

After a couple of minutes she came up to me and said, "You play pretty good, but you don't have much variety."

I responded, "Well, I've only played one piece; would you like to hear another?"

She did, and I did, and this time she listened, and I got hired. Contract? Never heard of such a thing. She asked if I needed anything special set up on the stage. I asked her if she could have the piano I noticed on-stage moved center stage, because I usually played some piano in the second set of my solo gigs. "Oh," she replied, "if you're going to play piano, you'll have to audition on piano, too! Come back for open mike tomorrow and you can do that."

This, to play a 3-hour lunch-gig for tips, from which the house skimmed 10%.

Or the owner/chef who, after deciding that he liked my music and agreeing to hire me, changed his mind about wanting to pay me the amount he had originally offered. In the course of the "discussion" which followed, he had the gall to tell me that if I were a "real" musician, I'd play for free, just for the love of music. To which I replied that if he were a "real" chef, he'd be preparing food and giving it away for free to the homeless, just for love of cooking.

Or the countless owners and bookers who thought they were paying an obscene wage when they paid a 3-piece band $100 for a three-hour gig. This back when minimum wage was about $5/hour. "Why, you guys are making more than $10/hour, that's pretty good money!" Until you point out that for each hour of on-stage music they get, you've had to put in 100 hours of practice and rehearsal learning your instrument and the tunes, and you had to pay rent and eat through those hours, too. I figured it out once, and we were actually making about $0.09 an hour. But most of the bookers don't hear that, even when you tell them.

Well, there's a joke about that, too:

---

A guy calls the musicians' local and tells them that he wants a six-piece band to play for his wedding and reception on the weekend, and describes the kind of music he wants. The rep at the local says, "Sure, I can set you up with a band like that. It'll cost you about $1500."

"$1500!" the guy says. "That sounds like an awful lot just for music."

So the union rep says, "Okay, look: since you're getting married I'm willing to cut you a deal, as kind of a wedding present," and he gives the guy a phone number.

"What's this number?" the guy asks.

"That's the plumbers' local," the rep replies. "Give them a call, and tell them you want six plumbers to work from 6:00 pm to midnight on a Saturday, and whatever they quote you, we'll do it for half."

---

[Austin Bob]

I watched my dad try to make it as a part time musician in the 70's. His band was ok, mostly country standards with a few originals. They had played together long enough that it came second nature to them. And this was a rural area in which there wasn't a lot of competition.

Still, he never made any money. Back then the standard rate was $100 a night. Split it 4 ways, add in your gas and all the misc expenses and there never was much left over. What there was always went for a new amp or guitar.

I've never had the desire to do that. I'm a pretty decent amateur musician and can sit in on the mando or guitar fairly easily in most situations. But the world is full of guys like me. Which makes it tough for the select few who are starting out who have REAL talent. But if they are good enough, and have a story to tell musically, the will find a way.

I choose not to compete with those guys by playing for free. Apparently plenty of others will, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. But I also don't feel entitled to be paid for my hobby because I've become good at it. And I've seen it both ways; great musicians who have to play for tips, and dudes with attitudes because they can play Bob Dylan covers.

[Londy]

I just think it sucks that people all want the Picasso but never want to pay for it. That is the creative arts in general. It's very discouraging. I think of people I know that have spent thousands on a music degree...what a slap in the face the world has waiting for them.

[Patrick Sylvest]

[Dr H]

Thanks, Bob.

For me, I eventually burned out on trying to make it as a performing musician, and I quit playing out for several years, and just concentrated on composing and home-recording. Fortunately, I had other job skills, like engineering and grant-writing, else I might not be here today to tell you about it.

What I found particularly disturbing was the great number of other musicians who were willing to undercut their fellows by playing for free, for (substantially) less than minimum wage, without contracts, etc. Some of these musicians reminded me of a person in a bad relationship, who's getting beat-up and abused by their partner, but keeps comming back for more, and thanking them for it. I just couldn't stomach it anymore.

We have several annual events here allegedly celebrating the local community and the accomplishments of its residents. Originally these events drew entirely on local businesses and local talent, and paid a reasonable wage. These things draw tens of thousands of people, who pay to get in, and they sell tankers-worth of beer at $6 a cup, so they are making money. Yet over the years, one by one, they started contracting with outside businesses, and shafting the locals. I was on one of the planning committees one year, and watched them bring in several out-of-town bands no better than (and in some cases not as good as) many local bar bands, and pay them $1000 for 2 hours, while none of the few local bands they still hired got more than $150 for the same effort.

Oh well, at least they were paying some musicians reasonably well. But it still irked me that they seemed to feel that local musicians should be grateful just for the opportunity to play, under any conditions, for sub-minimum wages. Hell, if all these guys wanted to do was play, they could have opened their cases on any street corner, netted the same take-home pay, and gotten less abuse.

These days I've got a good day job, so I play when, where, and what I feel like. I don't need to play for pay, but I won't play for free unless I'm specifically donating my time to an all-volunteer organization, and not competeing with other musicians. I won't play with bands that play for free, though I usually donate my cut back to the band when we're done. I always encourage them to negotiate for some kind of compensation; we've already had enough bad precedents set.

As regards Picassos: look at how many painters starved themselves so they could afford paint, then died in poverty, only to have their works sell for thousands (or millions) a few years after they were gone.

[Rush Burkhardt]

"At any moment, an individual is earning exactly what he believes he is worth!"

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, just so I understand it. You guys that go out and help your neighbor build a fence, or paint your mom's house, or fix your buddies car, or fix your aunt's computer, you all realize you're undercutting someone that could be making a living doing that, right? You do realize that when you clean you're house your taking money out of someone else's pocket as well. Sorry guys, it's a big old competitive world. Nobody is taking money from the working musician by playing for free. You lose one job it's on you to find another one in any line of work. You choose to work in an industry, you face the hazard's of that industry. It's simple.

[Charley wild]

OK, just so I understand it. You guys that go out and help your neighbor build a fence, or paint your mom's house, or fix your buddies car, or fix your aunt's computer, you all realize you're undercutting someone that could be making a living doing that, right? You do realize that when you clean you're house your taking money out of someone else's pocket as well. Sorry guys, it's a big old competitive world. Nobody is taking money from the working musician by playing for free. You lose one job it's on you to find another one in any line of work. You choose to work in an industry, you face the hazard's of that industry. It's simple.

That's about my take on it. I've played for money, for food and drink, and for free and when ever I've played for free it was my choice and I figured (if I even did) that the only person I was taking work away from was someone else who would also play the gig for free.