Singin' the Oil Varnish Blues

[multidon]

Well I have posted a couple threads about this project of mine. 9 or 10 years ago I tried using oil varnish on a project and had such a disaster that I swore never to use it again. But it wasn't IV oil varnish, and I believed what the catalog said: "Almost everyone can get good results". So I succumbed to the hype and bought their "varnishing kit" which includes all needed clear and colored varnish, a micro mesh kit, a sable brush, and an instructional video with some other items as well. over a hundred dollars for this stuff.

Well a things went well at first (project is a white violin) and I was satisfied with the color coats. Then things started going south with the clear coats. I just couldn't get a look I was satisfied with. First little grains of "sand" started to appear. I posted a thread about that and got some suggestions. Also asked Ken Wise of IV for advice. I tried all sorts of the suggestions but never did totally get rid of the "sand" no matter what I did. Then other problems began to creep in as if the sand wasn't enough. I became obsessed. Try it this way, sand it off, try it another way. Thick. Thin. In between. Sable brush. Disposable foam brush. Every time I tried something new it just seemed to introduce a new problem. I became a textbook example of every possible thing that could go wrong with varnish. Sand? Got it. Brush marks? Check. Runs? You betcha. Heavy spots? Ja wohl. Witness lines? Sure thing.

Well, now I am out of ideas and suggestions. I am most unhappy with the results. I do consider myself a reasonably intelligent person and capable of following instructions. But the instructions in the DVD just plain did not work for me. Nor did any of the kind suggestions from you gentlemen who tried to help me. Apparently the "Almost everyone" in the IV tag line doesn't mean me. And so I am on the verge of goving up. Problem is, I've got almost 500 dollars invested in the @#$%^& thing and it is ugly as sin. Just don't know what to do at this point. I will never oil varnish again, and I MEAN it this time! I previously swore off nitro too because of another bad experience. Guess I just really suck at this finishing thing.

[epicentre]

Don't lose hope, Don.

You should see me try to install frets.

oy.

[multidon]

Thank you for the encouragement epicentre. Finishing is hard as heck. I guess I didn't really ask a question per say but I was hoping someone would give me some guidance on what to do next. Any hope of fixing it without going all the way back to bare wood?

[sunburst]

It may not make you feel any better, but I have nearly 30 years of experience with finishing, including several different finish materials, 6 years of it finishing instruments for a manufacturer, and I can't do it either! I have two instruments in the finish process right now, and problems with both of them. Sometimes I'm ready to send stuff out to someone to do the finish work for me.

Back to your situation:
Have you tried a fresh batch of varnish? The "sand" thing sounds like it might be old varnish.

[multidon]

Thank you John. It's nice to know that a fine maker like you has problems with finishing too. No, the varnish is not old as far as I know. I got it from IV just a couple of months ago. Of course how long they had it sitting around is unknown.

[sunburst]

Hard to know how long it was sitting around before they got it too.
BTW, everyone has finish problems.

[Charles E.]

When you say "sand", are you talking about tiny hard particles or tiny air bubbles caused by out gassing? Hard particles can be sanded, bubbles can't. One thing I have learned over the years (and I am still learning,believe me) with oil varnish is that once you brush it on, you can't go over it with the brush again after a short time. Also if you are useing turpentine from a hardware store it will ruin your varnish. You need to get pure turpentine from an art supply source. We have hade good luck with Shiva rectified turpentine from an art supply store in town. There are other varnish suppliers beside IV, I have used Old Wood product's in the past with good results but they are expensive.
Don, don't dispair, I have had to take out the denatured alcohol and totally strip the varnish off an instrument and start over, it's not the end of the world but a bit of a pain in the butt.

[multidon]

Charley- I think I am getting both bubbles and solid particles. It is really hard for me to tell. I can sand them out whatever they are but I have to dig pretty deep to do it. As far as turpentine yes I am using hardware store variety but that is exactly what the "expert" on the instructional Dvd said to use. I confirmed this with Ken Wise of IV when I tried to order the matching thinner and they were out of stock. Ken told me hardware store turpentine would "work just fine". I was just going on the best information I had at the time. I kind of figured Ken should know what he's talking about.

[sunburst]

I don't know how much actual finish experience Ken has, I suspect he is going on what he has heard from others who have used HW store turp.. Even if he has had good results with it, it doesn't mean you will. It's "funny" how things that work for one person don't always work for another.

[Tavy]

I don't know how much actual finish experience Ken has, I suspect he is going on what he has heard from others who have used HW store turp.. Even if he has had good results with it, it doesn't mean you will. It's "funny" how things that work for one person don't always work for another.

Amen to that.

All last summer I simply couldn't get a decent finish on anything, eventually the weather changed (or at least it stopped raining!) and all of a sudden things started working again. Pretty annoying though!!

[HoGo]

I've used oil varnish on all my builds (15 so far) and couple other items (gunstocks etc.) and used at least three hardware store kinds of varnish, violin varnish, tru-oil and even homebrewed varnish from linseed oil and resins. Major difference was in self levelling and drying time.
The most important things with all of them is to filter, thin properly if needed and apply to perfectly clean surface. I used hardware store turpentine with no problems it just stinks more and is slower, but different brands may vary wildly. I also thinned with artist grade turpentine, naphtha and paint thinner, all the difference is in smell and how soon it evaporates. I'd bet the sand is either in the varnish to start with... stir the bottle and try it on glass if there is sediment... or it can be dust from sanding previous layers that was not thoroughly cleaned... dont forget to blow out dust from inside as well... or it can be from improperly cleaned brush.
My best rule if something goes wrong (run, bubbles, etc.) is to wait till it is fully cured and more, and only tinker with it then. And very carefully.

[kjbllc]

if you don't mind reading a lot , here is a link to get you started. joe has the varnish thing down pretty well, but seeing as you are not going to varnish anymore maybe its a waste of time?

[multidon]

Saintjohnbarleycorn. Where is the link ?

[Austin Clark]

http://www.violinvarnish.com/site%20map.htm

He may have meant this site. At any rate, Joe Robson makes great (expensive) varnish and can probably help you with your problem.

[Les Corley]

I had the same experience a few years back on a wood strip canoe that I was finishing & kept getting the sand in it . It isn't sand It's the batch of varnish that is to old & is what is called seedy. The only solution the factory came up with was to use a different batch of varsish. You can sand it down & go over the top with new varnish, good luck

[multidon]

Does anyone think that sanding flat then French polishing over it would be a solution?

[sunburst]

Probably would for those who are good at at FP, and since I'm not good at FP it wouldn't be my solution.
A similar process would be level sanding and then rubbing on coats of Truoil. I have gotten good results with that (TO over oil varnish).

[multidon]

Ha ha John you're not good at French polish? Well Ive never even tried it before! But I'm desperate so this fool will rush in where angels fear to tread. I have used tru-oil though. Didn't know you could put it over top of oil varnish. I may give that a try since its readily available and I'm not totally unfamiliar with it.

[Steve Sorensen]

I second the TruOil suggestion - wipe on with a cloth and leave a very thin layer.
Steve

[kjbllc]

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=search&andor_t ype=&sid=14730d01dc21b24c37456eac6d5051fe&search_a pp_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&cType=forum&cId=4&search_app_filters[forums][sortKey]=date&search_term=oil+varnish&search_app=forums&st =25

sorry here is the link, the first or second in on varnish sediments but yes its joe robson

[Austin Clark]

Personally I would French polish, but I really wouldn't recommend that to someone who hasn't done it before. It would be a whole new system for you to learn that has its own challenges.

I'm with John and Steve. Try the Tru-oil.

[Perry Babasin]

Tru Oil!!

[multidon]

Many thanks to all who chimed in here to help me. After letting the latest coat of clear oil varnish cure for about a week I used micro mesh to level out all the "sand". Persistent buggers even when leveled the marks could still be seen. Looked like a violin with acne. I wiped on the thin coat of tru oil and voila! Marks are gone. I love the look of the surface- glossy but not overly shiny either. It really does a good job of hiding those varnish flaws. I like the overall look better than the raw varnish too. Thanks again. You guys saved the day. I had used tru oil before as I said but I really had no idea you could use it over varnish like that.

[multidon]

Well now I am going to have to backpedal from the above. I did like the look of the tru oil wen it was wet, but after letting it cure overnight for approx 12 hrs (which should have been enough in my experience) I started to rub it out and discovered that whatever solvent they use for the tru oil had penetrated into the varnish coats and turned them into a gummy mess. It had penetrated so deep i could literally peel off gummy varnish layers with my fingernail. It was like I had put stripper on. It is now in the worst shape it has been in since the project started.

Now I really don't know what to do. I am pretty sure it needs to be stripped down to bare wood and started from square one. But after 2 months of work I am not sure I want to start over. Life is too short to waste time beating your head against a brick wall. When I think of all the time I spent sanding and rubbing instead of practicing and playing it makes me sick to my stomach. I now understand how Ahab felt about the white whale. Unlike Ahab however I think i know when to say uncle and move on with my life.

I may strip it and try to sell it in the white to someone who has more knowledge and patience. Or I may keep it as is to look at as a reminder the next time I am foolish enough to try a finishing project so it can snap me back to my senses. However, for those who have been following this thread, I wanted to warn you NOT to put tru oil over top of International Violin oil varnish. Don't do it. It is not compatible. It may be compatible with other oil varnishes but not that formula in my experience anyway.

[wsugai]

Your unfortunate experience is consistent with what I would expect if you applied Tru-Oil over another finish, especially one as relatively delicate as varnish. As I mentioned in my earlier post, the B-C people that I spoke with so many years ago told me that Tru-Oil is formulated to interact directly with bare wood ("catalyze" is the term that comes to mind, but I could be mistaken since it's been so many years). Inasmuch as Tru-Oil is designed to be resistant to such highly corrosive stuff as cartridge primer residue and gun cleaning solvent, it likely has some pretty strong solvents that would eat into an existing finish like varnish and probably lacquer too. Maybe some of the modern finishes might able to withstand those solvents, but I'm not really surprised that varnish would not.

Well now I am going to have to backpedal from the above. I did like the look of the tru oil wen it was wet, but after letting it cure overnight for approx 12 hrs (which should have been enough in my experience) I started to rub it out and discovered that whatever solvent they use for the tru oil had penetrated into the varnish coats and turned them into a gummy mess. It had penetrated so deep i could literally peel off gummy varnish layers with my fingernail. It was like I had put stripper on. It is now in the worst shape it has been in since the project started.

Now I really don't know what to do. I am pretty sure it needs to be stripped down to bare wood and started from square one. But after 2 months of work I am not sure I want to start over. Life is too short to waste time beating your head against a brick wall. When I think of all the time I spent sanding and rubbing instead of practicing and playing it makes me sick to my stomach. I now understand how Ahab felt about the white whale. Unlike Ahab however I think i know when to say uncle and move on with my life.

I may strip it and try to sell it in the white to someone who has more knowledge and patience. Or I may keep it as is to look at as a reminder the next time I am foolish enough to try a finishing project so it can snap me back to my senses. However, for those who have been following this thread, I wanted to warn you NOT to put tru oil over top of International Violin oil varnish. Don't do it. It is not compatible. It may be compatible with other oil varnishes but not that formula in my experience anyway.