Experience with an Adjustable Maple Bridge?

[snitchyphus]

I recently purchased this oval A from new-ish builder/luthier Matthew Tolley out of Seattle, WA [tolleyguitars.com]. He built it as a showcase instrument (serial #18) with glossy blacktop Englemann top and natural bigleaf maple sides/back/neck, black purfling, and bigleaf maple bindings. (No plastic or inlays anywhere on this one, even the tuner buttons are grained ebony...just wood, glue, stain/lacquer and the metal in the hardware. )

As part of the overall "black/blonde; less is more" aesthetic statement, he made an adjustable eastern red maple bridge for it--was concerned the bigleaf might be too soft. (I'll eventually post more pics, specs, audio etc. of the mando in the "Post a pic of your New Mando" thread. ) As you can see it really jumps off the blacktop---making the blacktop look even blacker, and defines the front of the mando.


I'm aware of Red Henry, Peter Coombe etc. one piece/violin-style maple bridge experiments but haven't ever seen an adjustable 2-piece maple bridge.

So just wanted to share Matthew's work, my initial experiences with it, and see if anyone else out there has had any experience with maple 2-piece "loar-style" adjustable bridges. If so, how did it compare tonewise to a traditional all-ebony bridge?

Matthew also made an ebony saddle for the maple bridge base and it does make a noticeable difference in tone.


I've switched back and forth between the maple saddle and ebony saddle (both using the maple bridge base and J74 strings, same medium-high action, same pick). Keep in mind that this is still an oval hole and a new sounding one at that...To my ear, from behind the mando, the maple bridge is like boosting the treble gain. Not unpleasant, just different. It appears to project with more cut than the ebony saddle but I think it may be because I'm hearing more focused trebles especially on the steel strings. The individual note sustain also seems slightly shorter with the all maple bridge. For the wound strings, it takes some of the boominess away. (To grossly overgeneralize, it sounds a little bit more f-hole like.) With the maple saddle, the "sweet spot" is above the hole and towards the fingerboard--gets too harsh sounding any closer to the bridge. But the mando is still balanced and open/oval-sounding, just overall brighter with the maple.

In comparison, the ebony saddle, emphasizes the bass, especially boosting the wound G, and darkening/warming the tone overall. It's just as loud as the all maple bridge with definitely more of the traditional oval sound. The sweet spot with the ebony saddle is just at the edge of the hole/behind the hole towards the bridge--gets soft/unfocused sounding closer to the fingerboard.

The last piece of the experiment is for me to fit a traditional all ebony bridge to the mando and see how it sounds then.

BOTTOM LINE: I really like both the saddles! It's like having two slightly different ovals to play.

I'll try to get representative audio up in the near future so you guys can judge for yourselves.

[Ivan Kelsall]

First off - that's a very beautiful instrument,so congrats.on that. What you're describing seems much the same thing that we experience when using 'different makes of string' which can insome instances give more treble or bass response. Realistically,the only thing that you can do is to play your mandolin using both bridge saddles & try to make a final decision as to which you prefer. You might find that as your instrument 'matures' the different saddles may become even more 'different in tone' or the differing tones might even out to become more the same - it could go either way (maybe). Appearance wise - i love that all Maple bridge & it's got my favourite fingerboard inlay as well - perfect !,
Ivan

[Pete Jenner]

I'm glad you posted this because I had this conversation recently with Peter Coombe and a couple of players. The consensus opinion was that the maple IS very bright. My mandolin is very bright anyway so changing from an ebony to a maple bridge made it considerably brighter. One player who played it before and after the swap said it lost some pleasant overtones also.

My bridges are not adjustable but the results seem to bear out what you are saying.
That's a lovely looking mandolin BTW made lovelier by the choice of saddles..

[Bernie Daniel]

The contrast provided by the maple bridge on the black top is very nice to look at.

I wonder if a maple bridge would also brighten the tone of a larger mandolin like an octave or a mandocello? Anyone know of a company that sells maple bridges?

[Hendrik Ahrend]

First Quality used to sell Loar style mandolin bridges from old maple; wonder if they still do. Don't know about larger ones, though.

[Rustyback]

I had maplebridges on (back)order from FQ for more than 6 months -- then cancelled
However I build my own adjustable bridge(s) ( thumbwheels from StewMac and " waning moon bosnian maple ( sic)" from an european source
I used these for a very dark sounding Flatbush A ---needed a better note seperation --- it provided a brighter & lean
tone , which was exactly what I was looking for and on this mando I will never go back ---( I swapped back and forth (ebony bridge) for a couple of years ---- I found a volume increase to
Also I dyed it black to prevent arresting Qs from the bluegrass police
However I would never think of putting a maple bridge on my Collings MT
From my experimenting with banjo bridges ( 30+ species including ebony ) I found nothing beats maple when it comes to response.
Jens

[snitchyphus]

Jens---I never considered that there might be other adjustable maple bridges out there dyed black and hiding under an ebony disguise! A "leaner" sound is another good adjective to describe the timbre change using the all maple bridge...not thin or weak by any means, just not as "fat."

Seems like maple selectively transmits the higher frequencies better? That would explain the brighter tone, the slightly shorter perceived note sustain and therefore better note separation.

It seems like one of the luthier suppliers or maybe someone like Steve at Cumberland Acoustics should offer an all maple adjustable as an option for people interested in another way to very noticeably tweak the sound of their instrument. Could even offer a "dyed ebony for bluegrass" as an upcharge of course...

[VernBrekke]

For what it's worth, I have some maple original "Brekke" bridges. They are adjustable, have a maple base, maple wedges and a maple saddle. They can also be mixed and matched with ebony wedges and/or saddle. Lots of combinations possible. They are not dyed but could be if desired.

In general, they seem to work well on oval hole instruments and may balance out the trebles on your instrument.


Vern Brekke
Bridger Products
bridgerproducts@hotmail.com

[Fretbear]

Siminoff and FQMS both used to carry these, but neither have them listed anymore.

[Marty Jacobson]

Just wanted to point out that what we're really talking about is the difference between bridges of more or less mass ... maple versus ebony (or rosewood, bone, whatever) has very little to do with it, other than the density of the material.

I string up all my instruments with a cored-out bridge (it's actually an ebony base with a cocobolo saddle, weighs a couple grams less than the stock Stew-Mac bridge), because it's easier to add mass to test the tone.
Adding 2 or 3 grams should be easily recognizable as a different tone by a player.

Sooo.. if you like the look of maple, but need the mass of ebony, you can drill some 1/8" holes in the bottom of the saddle, and put some lead rods in there. Or cap it with bone, etc.

And yes... that is an amazing instrument! Congrats to Matthew and yourself.

[snitchyphus]

It's good to hear that Mr. Brekke has combinations of woods including maple currently available for his innovative bridge.
But to compare a Brekke to a traditional bridge (many threads available on that of course!) and then to add the variable of wood combinations would be like comparing a maple orange to a maple apple.

Ideally we need someone who already has a Weber with an ebony Brekke who can conduct the experiment of switching in a maple wedge, maple saddle, and full maple Brekke.

[snitchyphus]

Marty--Thank you for weighing in! I was hoping to hear from an experienced builder who has experimented with different woods and weights for a traditional adjustable bridge.

Your comments suggesting that this tone difference between different material bridges simply comes down to a difference in mass and that a small 2-3 gram difference is enough to noticeably alter tone are really thought provoking to me. Afterall, one gram is just what a dollar bill weighs...it amazes me that such a small mass difference at the bridge, in the face of 182.7 POUNDS of J74 string tension, can so noticeably affect the whole instrument! [http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/stringxxiii.html]

Let's assume we have two adjustable bridges, one out of ebony and one out of red maple. They are completely identical in shape and construction, in other words the volume of these two bridges is the same. The only difference is the density of wood. The more dense ebony will have more mass, the less dense red maple less mass.

Now let's run some actual numbers:
Ebony (East African) density: 0.768 grams/cubic centimeter
Red Maple density: 0.546 g/cc
[http://www.csudh.edu/oliver/chemdata/woods.htm]

We know Density= Mass/Volume.

Frank Ford has a page from 1999(!) on how he made a light honeycombed bridge-- which sounds similar to the cored-out one Marty mentions he uses-- and lays out his logic for why lighter bridges are louder bridges (although importantly, he says it especially increased the BASS volume on his F-5!) FWIW, Mr. Ford's is a one piece maple with a thin ebony cap.
[http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musi...tmandobr.html]

Mr. Ford provides the weight for a standard traditional ebony bridge at 15.6 grams.
We know the density of ebony is 0.768 grams/cc; therefore the volume of this standard all ebony bridge is 20.3125 cubic centimeters.

So if we now had an exactly similar red maple bridge, also made from 20.3125 cubic centimeters of wood; it's lower density of 0.546 grams/cc means that an all maple bridge would weigh 11.09 grams.

This is a difference of 4.51 grams! Easily consistent with Marty's assertion/experience that only 2-3 grams would makes a tonal difference! (Mr. Ford's lightweight bridge was a whopping 11.9 grams lighter and I'm sure many of the one-piece/violin style bridges are in that range as well.)

Assuming the traditional 2-piece bridge is the ideal mando bridge shape (that's a huge assumption...I know Mr. Brekke, Red Henry, et al. would certainly disagree), changing the material the bridge is made of seems to me one of the simplest ways to alter the mass of the bridge without compromising the traditional form/function, and that change in mass is all that is necessary to affect the tone.

This might be stating the obvious, but I'm surprised that custom builders don't routinely offer different weight bridges, both heavier and lighter, as another relatively simple, easy (and cheap!) option to help customize the tone of their instruments.

Marty--in your experience, what does adding weight do to the tone? Have you ever gone much heavier than the standard ebony bridge? Have you found the uppermost weight where the bridge is perhaps just too heavy for a mandolin?

Thanks to everyone for their kind comments about this mando. All credit should go to Matthew and his design, skills, aesthetic and hard hand-carving work! The only thing I did was to be the one smart enough to send him money.

-Shawn

[Marty Jacobson]

Hehe, glad you're having fun with this.
A few things to bear in mind. Every piece of wood, maple, rosewood, ebony, or any other species, varies significantly from piece to piece, so the charts are just a ballpark. That said, your calculations seem pretty close to what I've observed.
Every mandolin has a different top mass and stiffness. Not sure how closely related stiffness is to the bridge mass game, but I'm sure there's some relationship.

I think the bridge mass will have a different effect depending on the type of instrument and whatever other interactions are present in the instrument. I don't know enough about it to come up with a prescriptive model, but I think it is worth starting light and then adding mass.

On my #17markII, the trebles are kind of thin with the baseline bridge. Adding three grams definitely improves note separation and adds sustain to the treble end. On this particular instrument, I did not notice a dramatic change in bass. That was the most recent one that I know needed more mass, other than that, I haven't kept track.

I have a theory that the lighter density of the cheap rosewood bridges on import mandolins accounts for the dramatic changes in tone that are reported when a CA, Siminoff, or Randy Wood bridge is installed. I believe those overbuilt instruments may just need heavier bridges. Seems like a bridge maker that offers user-swappable metal slugs could sell a lot of them. Not me, I can barely keep up with the few irons I'm trying to keep on the fire.

[snitchyphus]

Every mandolin has a different top mass and stiffness. Not sure how closely related stiffness is to the bridge mass game, but I'm sure there's some relationship....

I think the bridge mass will have a different effect depending on the type of instrument and whatever other interactions are present in the instrument. I don't know enough about it to come up with a prescriptive model, but I think it is worth starting light and then adding mass.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Finding the "right" amount of bridge mass for each individual mandolin would seem to be an interesting avenue for customization...and seems a relatively easy (non-destructive, reversible) tweak compared to some of the other things that luthiers do to create/adjust the voice of an instrument.

It would be very interesting to start seeing bridge mass as one of the pieces of information included in an instrument's specifications. Just as we currently list soundboard bracing and nut width, maybe some day builders/luthiers will also include bridge mass when describing their instruments.

A well made traditional ebony bridge has clearly proven itself through time as really good and it will always be the default starting point/gold standard in terms of form/function/sound but I'm also starting to think of bridges now in a slightly different way: Every mandolin made is unique, so shouldn't we at least consider whether every bridge should be unique too (when it comes to its mass)?

[Fretbear]

The adjustable style mandolin bridge is a mysterious little device. They mostly look alike; if you look at the regular Stew-mac model compared to a CA for example, they don't seem to be radically different from one another. They do however sound very different. In the early '80's I bought a Kentucky KM-1000. I decided to have the stock rosewood bridge changed out and not knowing any better I spent a lot of cash to have a luthier craft and fit another one for it out of ebony. It was big and heavy and odd-looking I have no idea where he got the dimensions for it from. I eventually grew suspicious of it and fit a Stewmac to it. That was the first mandolin bridge I ever fit, but not the last. Using different kinds of wood will stir the pot even more.

[snitchyphus]

If anyone is interested in experimenting with an adjustable maple bridge, it appears that First Quality currently has in stock "Sullivan OLD GROWTH Loar-Style" Mandolin bridges. (as mentioned previously by other posters.) Their short description: "Constructed from our Factory Floor old growth maple, this bridge resonates and projects the sound of your instrument like nothing else." With nickel or gold hardware at $40/$42 + shipping. (No financial interest on my part.) The saddle does appear to be compensated and unslotted, but without any radius from their website's pictures.

If anyone gets one to try, I'm sure many of us would be curious to know how it changes your mando's sound.

[Steevarino]

Hey Gang --Steve here from Cumberland Acoustic. As it turns out, I used to make traditional style mandolin bridges (just like the ebony ones we make) out of maple for a customer in east Tennessee. This was several years ago. As I recall, I stained them black, and polished them up a bit, so they looked very much like a traditional ebony bridge. I don't recall how many I sold him, but over a period of a few years, I think he ordered several times, maybe 6-12 bridges at a time. Hard telling what mandolins those bridges wound up on. Could be yours!

I'd have to look around in some old, dusty places, but it seems I ran into a stash of maple bases and saddles some time back. I always seem to make more than I would ever need. So, if anyone wants a traditional style maple bridge, let me know. No, it won't be made from a floor from a torn down factory, but, knowing myself, I probably used pretty good maple. I never tried one myself, but my customer raved about them, and what a difference they made, at the time. No re-orders in quite some time now though, so who knows...?

Somewhat related, I was also commissioned at one time to make some bridges out of sycamore. As usual, I made more than were needed, and the spare parts got put away somewhere. I stumbled upon them some time back, and sold a few right here in the MC Classifieds. I don't recall getting any feedback on those bridges, but this might be a good place to 'fess-up'. Even if you didn't have a good experience with them, I wouldn't be at all offended, as it never was my idea to make this type of bridge out of all these different woods (maple, rosewood, cocobolo, and sycamore, so far). My favorite mandolin bridge combination has always been the traditional "Loar Style" adjustable bridge, made out of good, dense ebony. I suppose it probably always will be, too...

[David Houchens]

I've just made adjustable bridges from Honduras rosewood and Birch as well. I liked them both, but still the Ebony was
what I liked best on my latest mandolin.
I have some Birdseye maple I want to try. Its very hard but still lighter than ebony, so it will probably be closer to the birch.
Lighter bridges could be an option for thicker topped mandolins maybe?