Chord training or Why do you hate us? - signed "Your Fingers"

[sish]

Ok, before my fingers strangle me in my sleep I decide there had to be a better mechanism for improving chord precision, strength, and skill. So I have decided to stop lurking and start contributing.

I played Guitar for years, never had a problem with chords. I play, own, and have built Ukuleles, also, no problems with chords. I tried my hand at the fiddle (Praise be to God! We have been delivered from the great ear splitting evil!.. said my family and neighbors when I stopped the fiddle) and never had an issue.

But, when I started chords with the Mandolin I did a double take. Unison strings? All held down in barre like formations? Oh man, that has to be a mis-print..<google google google>. Nope, not a misprint, mind officially blown.

So, I've broken it down to two main issues. First for a guy I do have small hands, which honestly made the violin and mandolin much easier for lots of things, but even with my small hands things like the "C" chord where I've got the 2nd and 3rd frets held down, fingers close together, I still seem to get some "spillover" on to the E String or the G string.. I pity those with meat hooks, how does marshall do it?

Ahh, but he get's his day (and I get blasted) when I try things like the A or E chords..umm what? The Four_Finger A Chord (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/.../ch.pl?chord=A) which is really three fingers, holy hell. Now I heard a wild rumor that it's acceptable to press the "inside" strings in a situation like that. In other words (please forgive my low tech diagram, it took way too long to make)..

G D A E
|| || || ||

Those two strings would be acceptable and you pull this off by putting your finger right in between the two sets of strings, cry havoc, and let it rip, knowing full well the outside strings will deliver a muted "thump". Is this really what most people do?

I guess what this long diatribe is getting around to is as follows:

Is there a nice progression (think strength training) that I could work through to work these out? I've never been a fan of "just keep doing it, it'll get better" cause often you get too frustrated too quickly. I've found simple steps, once mastered, give you the confidence to keep going.

Any suggestions? At this point I'll even consider a few Skype lessons if you know the right person/persons. I've tried the Academy of Bluegrass, and while Mike tries hard, there seems to be so much documentation and transcription missing. Hell I spent 10 minutes transcribing something he did in a video since I couldn't find it anywhere.

Oh and wow, you guys and gals have a really bang up site here, holy cow, this place has almost everything a mandolin beater-upper/attempter/try-really-harder like me could want. Plus the layout is easy to navigate, etc. Top notch!

-Matt

[Tom Wright]

It gets easier.

But along the way it will hurt as your fingers squeeze extra hard to get things to speak cleanly--that goes away with improving accuracy.

Covering two or more courses is handled according to circumstance---sometimes you do it with fingertip, compromising as necessary like your illustration. Sometimes you lay the finger down, barre-style. For the 2-2-4-5, A major chord, I would lay the index finger down for 2nd fret and use ring finger and pinky for 4th and 5th fret--not using 2nd finger makes it easier for me to flatten the index finger comfortably.

Avoiding the other strings is always a challenge if you need them to ring, but sometimes you want the opposite, blocking them from speaking. Again, it gets easier, as you lean this way or that according to need. For 0-2-3-0, I would either not play the high E, or drop the low G, or I might play 5-2-3 and skip the open strings altogether. Or you could play 0-2-3-3. Very often a player is leaning this way and that as the music goes by, to allow clearance, if doing fancy string-crossing bits that exploit open strings, like Jesse McReynolds. BTW, fingered notes with open strings on either side is awkward on violin, too. Always easier to have only one side with open strings, so you can lean away.

As my calluses developed, I noticed the more squared-off shape helped covering neighboring courses. Conveniently, they also squeak less on roundwound strings than uncallused fingertips.

You do what is needed, and after a while it looks easy to others, but the secret is always accuracy and experience.

[Gerard Dick]

Get a setup. If your nut is too high you'll shred your finger trying to get the strings down near the nut. My Weber Yellowstone has action so low that a 1.5 mm pick won't fall out if placed beneath the strings at the 12 fret. Not woven into the strings, just tucked under. I get clear tone and no buzz. My finger start to hurt after about the 4th hour of a long jam but that is normal.

[Jim Gallaher]

As a guitarist who converted to mandolin, one of the problems I encountered was the angle at which my fingers approached the strings relative to the fingerboard.

For guitar, this was always close to a 90-degree angle (the neck being the "vertical" plane, my fingers being the "horizontal" plane). For mandolin, it was necessary to approach the fingerboard at a 45-degree angle. This "widened" the pads of my fingers relative to the string pairs (better coverage) and allowed my fingers to reach more frets -- very important when making the four-finger "bluegrass" A-chord (the first four-finger A in your example).

Perhaps it's this "approach angle" that needs adjustment?

[Chris Rizos]

Playing chords on the mandolin requires a lot of practice, I know.
I am a guitarist as well, with a formal training and I was really surprised when I started practicing chords on the mandolin. The fingerboard is so small and my fingers are quite large and strong, which is good for the guitar, but at the beginning seemed not good for the mandolin.

For mandolin, it was necessary to approach the fingerboard at a 45-degree angle

This is a very good advise, it worked for me as well. In any case, I think the key is hard work, and practising really slow. You need to make your fingers learn how to do it as they have a memory of their own.

Now if you have issues with fingering the A chord take a look here, it may help you...

[David Lewis]

In my limited experience, you need to realise that firstly, it's not a guitar. While that seems self evident actually approaching mando with that philosophy often breaks the nexus. Secondly go to www.jazzmando.com for brilliant chordal exercises.

And good luck. It's worth it.

[grandomando]

I have actually developed problems (carpal tunnel) after starting serious chord work on the small mando. It is hard! All I can say is, keep practicing your single string playing for economy, and add chord work slowly and in small increments! Also, have a day off once in a while. Marshall actually says that he makes good use of his meat hooks: he doesn't really need to barre that often since he can easily press down two courses with one finger! He also says that concerning ergonomics, all bets are off when it comes to chords. So I guess its a matter of developing strength and a general feel for how to do things efficiently.

Here's another thing: I hardly ever even try to play four note chords. For most types of music, they are excessive. So I have decided to start off with with dyads and triads. They require less strength and I am able to give more attention to how each finger feels on the fingerboard.

[Martin Jonas]

The big dirty secret in mandolin chords is that you don't always have to play all the notes of every chord, especially if you're playing with others. You do, however, play them exactly in time. So, if you find you can't sort your fingers into complicated chord shapes and keep the groove going across chord changes, simplify them. The symmetry of the mandolin tuning makes this much easier than on guitar. The best advice I've received is from Maartin Allcock (ex-Fairport Convention, ex-Jethro Tull and a member of Simon Mayor's "Mandolin All-Stars" band in the 1990s): if you don't know a chord shape, just play a double-stop consisting of the fundamental of the chord along with the note on the same fret one string up -- that's a power chord with the first and fifth covered and it will fit in with whatever anybody else is playing at the time. One step fancier is to add the note yet another string up and one/two frets higher for a minor/major chord.

An example:

Your tune calls for a C#m chord and you haven't remembered any chord shapes for that. C# is the sixth fret on the G string, so you'll get out of jail by playing 66xx (a C# power chord). If you want to give it a minor key flavour, add the third by playing 667x. The corresponding major C# chord shape is 668x.

So, with only two (very similar) chord shapes you can make any major and any minor chord anywhere on the fretboard.

Martin

[Phil Goodson]

........
So, with only two (very similar) chord shapes you can make any major and any minor chord anywhere on the fretboard.
Martin

Yep. IF you know where the notes are located on the fretboard.

[Londy]

Yep. IF you know where the notes are located on the fretboard.

Yes! I think it is important to learn the notes on the fretboard and not just learn shapes. We need to know what we are playing. Running through different scales and positions will help you learn the notes. Try to understand the notes you are playing on a piece of music. Look at the piano keys while playing the mandolin if it will help understand where the notes are. Remember WWHWWWH and this will also help. Over time muscle memory will kick in and make hitting chords/notes easier.

[johes]

I have actually developed problems (carpal tunnel) after starting serious chord work on the small mando. It is hard! All I can say is, keep practicing your single string playing for economy, and add chord work slowly and in small increments! Also, have a day off once in a while. Marshall actually says that he makes good use of his meat hooks: he doesn't really need to barre that often since he can easily press down two courses with one finger! He also says that concerning ergonomics, all bets are off when it comes to chords. So I guess its a matter of developing strength and a general feel for how to do things efficiently.

Here's another thing: I hardly ever even try to play four note chords. For most types of music, they are excessive. So I have decided to start off with with dyads and triads. They require less strength and I am able to give more attention to how each finger feels on the fingerboard.

I just had a not so fun cortisone shot in my left hand for trigger finger in my left pinkie that came from trying to make my very small hands form the G chop chord (and I did have the correct hand angle). So, no more 4 fingers for me also. I'll use the pinkie when it heals for melody when necessary, but not for chords.

[lukmanohnz]

But along the way it will hurt as your fingers squeeze extra hard to get things to speak cleanly--that goes away with improving accuracy.

Each player will find his or her own path. But I will offer my perspective - if it hurts, there is likely a problem with either your setup or your technique. As others have recommended, I suggest beginning with a visit to a reputable luthier with experience setting up mandolins. Once your instrument is properly adjusted, start by reducing your effort, not increasing it! Release tension in your fretting hand. This alone may require some lengthy sessions of focused attention. Attend to proper position on the neck and using only the minimum amount of pressure on the strings necessary to have the notes ring clearly. Begin with one course only. Then two, then three, etc. I just took a 3-day workshop with Sharon Gilchrist, and day 1 was devoted entirely to technique. She emphasized again and again the need to relax the hand. You may find Mike Marshall's Mandolin Fundamentals #1 a useful resource. The first few minutes are devoted to basic hand position, and are alone worth the price of admission.

[JeffD]

I am not a fan of barre chords. I get around the fretboard pretty well without them. They seem to require going to a guitaristic grip with my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck, as opposed to the normal mandolinistic grip with the thumb on the top. This switch makes going back and forth from barre chords to other chords kind of clunky.

Perhaps bad practice to set aside the hard parts, but it really has not gotten in the way of my playing.

[JRcohan]

The learning curve of the left hand is pretty steep to climb at first in terms of playing chop chords and getting full volume. I agree with Martin Jonas' advice, in terms of full Bill Monroe Chords are not always necessary. Some more simple double stops as well as playing the chords with open strings can make for better sounding less tedious playing. I have some chord diagrams via tabledit on my site that could help. http://jakecohan.com/info/2012/11/29...hord-voicings/

Follow the link above and you will see some chords listed some are very easy, work your way up at your own pace. No need to cause pain, good technique should keep that to a minimum. Remember you left hand can be angled slightly like a violin players is.

[Mynx]

look, i realy am trying to understand a lot here, buuuuut you see the problem is that I'm from England/blighty/over the pond, and was not brought up playing music. any how this last year 2012 i was incapacitated due to some surgery and some bonkers friend from the U.S.A. sends me a mandolin because i could not lift my bass. ok i'm getting to the point, so i notice that there are twin strings yeah i get that bit, the tuning is up side down, got that bit, but are you sure they are not just making things up when it comes to the bit with chords? and does any one know how to explain it in a simple non gobbley gook plain jargon and roman numeral free method? other than that i understand, i do hope you get some amusement out of my question in reply to this very i am sure informative subject.

[xiledscot]

buuuuut you see the problem is that I'm from England....................................well I'd say you got that bit right!!

Very simply..................it's how the instrument is played!!................................at least for certain types of music e.g. Bluegrass.

No one says you can't do your own thing!

[PhillipeTaylor]

I don't know, I wouldn't give up on the four finger A chord, or the four fingered chord shapes, though. I've only been playing a year, and it took me almost that amount of time to get that chord shape so I could hit it consistently and quickly without making a mess of things, but once I got that chord shape on the A, that opened up a whole range of other chords, since all of those four fingered chord-shapes just go all the way down the fretboard and gives you a lot of control over the sound. That was the appeal of those four fingered bluegrass chords, too, that control (which I haven't even been able to practice since my pinky finger didn't even reach the G string until last month!).

I asked similar questions and got similar answers, but I just couldn't give it up, and I'm glad I didn't. But then again, I may be just too new to experience the pleasures of carpal tunnel syndrome as yet, but I have had my days of sore hands and I can't really feel anything on my left fingers anymore, nor can I pick my nose with my left index finger anymore because the callus is too big, but four fingered chords are worth it to me . I just picked away at it little by little. But it literally took almost a year, and I kind of went crazy with practice last summer.

[David Lewis]

Get a guitar chord book. Play the chirds on the low four strings upside down on the mando. Boom. 6 useful chords. (Remember to add the f# for the d chord)

[Marcelyn]

Something that helped me was to learn the four-finger G, and D chop chords one step higher on the fretboard as A and E chords. The frets are a little closer together and made it an easier stretch. I know you aren't a fan of "Just keep at it and it'll get easier," but try to enjoy the challenge and small successes along the way.

[JonZ]

Any note can be left out of a chord. Subtract notes until you are in your comfort zone. When your comfort zone becomes to comfortable, add a note. The typical C chop has a "missing note", and we get along just fine with it. Plenty of jazz players use mostly three-note chords, even when the chart calls for a seventh chord. Even two-note "shell voicings" are common.

[stevedenver]

im sorry
to me , this is simple,
chording is muscle memory
htat means daily practice

just like going through a quick changes on guitar
mechanically
first -imho-one must play the chord cleanly- each string should ring clearly-that barre F chord for example on guitar, the G chop on mando, or F in the first position
sound each string and fix the 'thud'-this exercise helps you learn the feel of how you must chord to achieve this-what finger isnt correctly positioned

second
you might simply chose songs with lyrics and changes-chose a tempo -make the chords in time-sing
some songs , such as eight more miles to louisville-will have quicker changes -G C G D C G-you , by practicing getting the changes-first accurate finger placement, then clear string ring, then to tempo-singing will help you keep tempo and force the change to be on time



the jethro burns book, has almost entirely three finger chords in its chord charts-
if you wish to have less on your plate, or have other issues

im a big one for simply
learning several forms of both maj and minor chords -then learning what chord occurs where on the fretboard-ie moveable chords-with different fingerings jazzmando.com has some superb info, charts, etc-chose one or two keys and learn those chords, really learn them, then add a new key

then add sevenths and diminished -maj 7 maj 6 forms to your chord vocabulary

as for dropping notes, most simply
the 3rd and the 7th are the notes that really define the chord-these are the two most important notes -they give the maj or min sound, the leading /resolution sound
-the 1 and 5 can be dropped and you could still hear the chord that is implied by retaining the 3 and 7 (or 6)

again, imho, the absolute easiest way to do this is to play songs, a few every day, of different styles-ie folk, rock, celtic, jazz etc -and simply practice every day-chose a few songs , and focus on simply remembering the chords and then making the muscles do it

i still remember this process from guitar decades ago, and the same with mando-
some changes are harder-ie chop G to D, super quickly, without lifting the hand-put simply changing the center two finger positions quickly
the only way it happens is with mindful practice -it wont come all at once, but it will come, especially if youre paying attention
first it will be sheer force, then you will use less as your technique improves

be patient with yourself, and perseverant,
dont strain your hand with too much practice
good luck and enjoy -

[Chris Rizos]

Any note can be left out of a chord. Subtract notes until you are in your comfort zone. When your comfort zone becomes to comfortable, add a note. The typical C chop has a "missing note", and we get along just fine with it. Plenty of jazz players use mostly three-note chords, even when the chart calls for a seventh chord. Even two-note "shell voicings" are common.

Actually, the simplest type of chords one can play are triads, and we can add more notes to make it a 7th, 9th etc. We can also omit notes, but we usually try not to omit a specific note of the triad, called the third, which gives "character" to the chord.

Triads are simple chords that consist of three notes, the root, the third and the fifth. If you do not know how to find the third and fifth, no worries, it is simple! Just count notes, starting from the root, i.e. the name of the chord. For the C Major chord and taking into account that the notes are A-B-C-D-E-F-G, it is obvious that the third above the root is E, and the fifth above the root is G. So, the C Major chord consists of C, E, and G (and the C minor consists of C, Eb, G).

The note that we try not to omit is the third, E or Eb, as it defines the "character" of the chord, happy or sad.
If this sounds confusing, here you can read more details.

[greenwdse]

As a beginner, my frustration is holding down two strings with one finger while trying to stretch another finger to other strings. My fingers can't seem to produce a clear sound without muting a string. And the pain begins as I try to weedle and contort my hand in such unnatural, evil ways. Tonight I yelled at Don Julin's book.

"But Don," I screamed at the book. "My finger isn't thick and stubbly like yours is in the diagram. See? Is this some practical joke? Because I've heard about those things called Four Finger Chop Chords and I KNOW those have got to be a practical joke."

So here are some questions for the experts:

1) Can I/Should I move on in my "lessons" even though I can't seem to master certain chords right away? Or should I just concentrate on perfecting "Lesson 6- Fun with your E Chord" until my fingers break?
2) To stop the muting, will my fingers mutate into something with square tips? Can I purchase some sort of Swedish finger lengthing pump? Can someone please assure me this is do-able?

[Gerard Dick]

I have a hand injury. Due to an industrial accident the index finger of my left hand is 1/2 inch shorter than the blueprint intended. When i first saw the 4 finger chord my response was "you have to be joking, I hope" It took me 3 years to be able to do it in the A position and now 2 more years down the road, G is also in my bag of tricks. If I can do it with a messed up hand it is possible. Don't give up. The A chord with the barre that you show, there is no reason that you can't barre the whole neck like a guitarist would. I know it is 8 strings instead of 6 but the neck is narrower so it should not be a problem.
I repeat my advice from April. Get a set up. It should not be that hard to fret at the 2nd fret. Just for giggles put a capo on at the first fret. With a feeler gauge measure the clearance from the strings to the second fret. Now release the capo and the clearance at the first fret should be the same. If it is more then your nut slots are not deep enough and the action at the nut is too high. This will kill your fingers.

[emitfo]

Interesting that this thread is here. I stopped playing mando for awhile because my left hand would go numb when I played chords. I even got a ukulele which lets me play and sing a bit longer but it certainly does not have the appealing sound of a mandolin or guitar (my 1st instrument). Playing and singing with the uke made me realize how much I like playing and singing so I've pulled out the mando and guitar (though I'll have to get a shorter, smaller body and neck than the baseball bat sized neck I have now...that's a baseball sized neck on the GUITAR not mine, thank-you very much Probably the GS-mini Mahogany) and playing within my limitations is still worth it. That means pretty much only single notes & double stops with limited chords that involve no barres at all on the mandolin and extremely limited barres on the guitar. I have no problem with "twisted finger" chords like dims or augs but almost no barre chords and certainly not for any length of time.

It's kind of sad but it's still better than not playing at all.