Am I Cynical or Maybe On To Something About Camps?

[DataNick]

Thanks Stefan!

Very insightful to your experiences. I have heard great things about the Mando Symposium...I know one of the instructors, Chris Acquavella, and I've heard only great things!

By wanting to get me picking, I'm assuming that you mean at a camp...and I plan to do just that!
I was just in a cynical moment after a friend of mine returned from a $700 camp investment with what appeared to be from my perspective, little or no technical takeaways...

Thanks again for the response!

[DataNick]

Sometimes the interpretation reveals more about the reader than the writer.

I appreciate both the barbs and defense.

Let's move on...this is how I suggest we approach responses from here on out (copy & paste if you like):

Dude, you were being cynical.
I know how it feels to be cynical, I've felt the same way at times, re: camp experiences, here's what I found....

The feel, felt, found method always resonates in the receiver's mind better than barbing...

Can we all just get along?...

[JonZ]

Sure...

What was the topic?

[sgarrity]

Go to Monroe Camp. It's an awesome experience and Mike is an exceptional teacher

[DataNick]

Go to Monroe Camp. It's an awesome experience and Mike is an exceptional teacher

Thanks for the feedback..that is the plan! (even before I started this thread, LOL)

[montana]

From my camp experience the instructor has to teach to the level of the class. It could be too hard or too easy for you but it's a fun vacation.

[mandodan1960]

My experience at the Warnick Jam camp was that a lot of the participants were quite well heeled. Several Doctors,Lawyers and Business owners amoungst us regular folk. Most of the regular folk had decent jobs. My take away was that most of these camps are really not targeted to people who think that 1K is a lot of money to spend on a nice 4 or 5 day getaway.

[Mike Bunting]

I've only been to two camps, several times each. The first was the Sorrento camp in B.C. In an idyllic location in the Canadian Rockies, I spent a week jamming all night long (or at least as long as I could stay awake!), two daily classes with Radim Zenkl the first year and John Moore in the second with lots of private time with the instructors for general chats or questioning. The instructors seemed to be available most of the time and quite amenable even though they were there to work, it wasn't a paid holiday for sure. There were all kinds of opportunities, both formal via band scrambles and lots of informal jamming. Radim's lessons were filled with ideas that would take one outside the usual confines of one's imagination as well as hand outs of all kinds of cool scales that later, after I assimilated them, became very useful. John Moore's classes were very much based on the learning process, how to listen to ourselves etc. With his good humoured approach, he certainly got us stretching out.

The other camp that I've been to a couple of times is the Monroe camp driven by Mike Compton. Wow, what a collection of great players, both amateur and pro, who are welcoming to all levels. There are a few cafe members who would attest to that. Classes on all aspects of Monroe style playing and there are opportunities for one on one learning, there's nothing like sitting knee to knee with Mike Compton getting a lesson, a detailed one too. I remember sitting one afternoon in the lobby with Roland, playing some tunes and chatting and having Raymond Huffmaster sit down to play immaculate rhythm guitar. I could go on and on.

What did I learn? Some of the stuff was technical, and having players of the calibre of the teachers here objectively critique your playing is absolutely invaluable, but even greater was discovering more of the mental attitude that it takes to play music. The biggest thing I learned was to play a lot and listen a lot.

[UsuallyPickin]

Go to a camp .... it is much more entertaining the playing / learning by yourself at home.... and indeed the learning becomes exponential ... the stated goal of many camps is to give you enough "stuff" in a week to keep you busy applying it and all it's permutations until it is time to go get another dose. Also ... sitting in class and watching an "A" level player work his or her instrument is an education you can't get from a DVD or an interactive lesson. SKYPE is good , I take SKYPE lessons .. but for me in person is better for the immediacy and intimacy of the exchange. just sayin' R/

[Patrick Sylvest]

Having been an instructor at a camp, I can tell you that it's no vacation and that when folks are paying for my attention and instruction I take the dollars they've invested quite seriously. I come prepared and focused ready to meet as many needs as I can.

I've also attended several camps/instructional weekends and do not regret a single one. I've got some lifelong friends from these experiences that I treasure.

The Fur Peace Ranch is a gas gas gas!!!

[SternART]

I've got some lifelong friends from these experiences that I treasure.

Me too...........new friends from not only all over this country but other countries as well. Some I've visited in my travels, others I see again at Camp & it is like a reunion each year. I've bought & sold mandolins.......played about every brand of mandolin & had set up work done on my instrument. I also take away a years worth of things to work on. And like others have said it is nice to have no phone, computer, etc. Nothing but music for a week, for me, getting away from my daily routine is rewarding too!

[OU1]

WOW......lets just say it like this: to each their own. Camps are different for everyone. I would love to attend and know it would help an "average" player like myself....I think it would be fun....but I choose to hang on to my money and continue on my current average path being happy and impressed with people who are better at playing the mandolin than I. Maybe someday I will attend one and post my experience!

Scott

GO SOONERS!

[greg_tsam]

My experience at the Warnick Jam camp was that a lot of the participants were quite well heeled. Several Doctors,Lawyers and Business owners amoungst us regular folk. Most of the regular folk had decent jobs. My take away was that most of these camps are really not targeted to people who think that 1K is a lot of money to spend on a nice 4 or 5 day getaway.

I was thinking the same thing. It's a matter of perspective and position when you boil it down. A $30 supper doesn't make much of a dent when you make $100,000/yr but if you're only making $25,000 then it's out of the question. I have a weird and inconsistent income so I can see it from both sides but my friends that have been at the same job, making good pay, year after year, with their company matched IRA's and full benefits just can't remember what it was like to worry about the price of gas going up or how to pay for a car repair, new tires or a new pair of work clothes when the light bill and rent is due.

"We live in two different worlds, dear..."

[chip]

I was thinking the same thing. It's a matter of perspective and position when you boil it down. A $30 supper doesn't make much of a dent when you make $100,000/yr but if you're only making $25,000 then it's out of the question."

At $30 its no longer a supper...it's now called a dinner

[foldedpath]

I often wonder why there isn't more "one on one" teaching going on in conjunction with concerts and festivals by touring musicians. It seems like another $200 for a couple or three hours of private instruction would be welcome income to a professional sideman. I would think that a student could gain a lot from a $50 investment with a professional player. I have often thought about how to facilitate this with the festival I produce.

There's some of that in the Irish/Scottish 'trad scene -- touring musicians who do workshops and/or private instruction when they're in town for a larger public show.

For example, last summer the Irish fiddler Kevin Burke had a series of house concerts and other public performances in our area. My fiddler S.O. attended a workshop with a group of other fiddlers at one location, before one of his house concerts. Then we went to see a solo concert he gave at a local winery. In the afternoon before that concert, she booked a one-hour private lesson. It was at the private home of the person organizing the winery concert where Burke was staying. She had her lesson outdoors, in the shade under a tree on a perfect weather day; just talking about fiddling and getting a bit of instruction from one of the legends in Irish music.

It was only an hour of instruction and conversation, but she came out of it with a few revelations about bow technique and rhythm, after asking him some specific questions. It gets back to knowing what you want to get out of any workshop, but that doesn't always work in a group setting where the agenda is set by the instructor, or sometimes by the other students. With a private lesson, you can go in with a specific goal in mind, and a good teacher will accommodate it. That's different from the type of "instruction" you sometimes get in workshops, like "okay class, here's a tune I'm going to teach you to play."

I think that could be done in connection with Bluegrass festivals too, but it would help to have an artist like Burke who actually does spend time teaching on the side, as well as performing. Just grabbing a famous performer out of a band who doesn't do much teaching on the side, might not be as positive an experience.

It probably goes without saying, but there is also a threshold skill level for the student with a "master class" like this. A student needs to be at least intermediate level to get much out of it. Or rather, to know what they're trying to get out of it. I think DataNick's comment about his friend coming back with a vague notion of "stuff" they learned, is just a reflection of the fact that rank beginners don't know how much they don't know, or what they need to learn. Getting past that point takes time, and sometimes it's enough just to be exposed to the general vibe of a festival or workshop as an incentive to keep at it.

[stevedenver]

Thanks to you nick.

It takes an open mind to expose your feeling, and obviously to get everyone's feedback,
without the diplomacy or softness of civility if they werer speaking with you , face to face, over a beer. Thats the "beauty" of a forum, sometimes.

It is my own experience, that no matter where or what or who, theres something to be learned. and sometimes, there are long periods in between. And depending on how much coffee you've had, or the deadlines in your life, you might not always be in the right mindset.

This is like criticising Disneyland to the faithful, because you had a great time, but complain too of having spent more of your time waiting in line than actually doing things.

What i do understand too, is that simply, sometimes we make risk-loss-gain analysis, based on our perceptions, available time, money, effort, personality, and other factors and stresses in our lives.

Somehow, it is not inconceivable to me that someone may have thier own experience and opinion, which differs from someone else's. This isn't, per se, negative.

Given some of the responses to Nick, I'd think twice about how I might ask a question, or request feedback around here.

[shortymack]

Less analyzing, more doing, when it comes down to it is the only way to see if things are right for you. My shoes dont fit you and I hope yours dont fit mine either. If you choose to go to a camp and do or dont like it, well then you know, if you dont go because of what someone else said you will never really know.

[stevedenver]

Less analyzing, more doing, when it comes down to it is the only way to see if things are right for you. My shoes dont fit you and I hope yours dont fit mine either. If you choose to go to a camp and do or dont like it, well then you know, if you dont go because of what someone else said you will never really know.

To me, a value of a forum is feedback, which helps me analyze and make decisions, about things I dont know and cant easily sample.

This includes how to learn, what to buy and to avoid, how to play, music I might enjoy, tips, strings, etc. and, from reading lots of posts, those members whose posts reveal objectivity, thought, experience and knowledge. I understand that there is nothing as valid as first hand experience, but there are only so many hours in the day, and dollars in our wallet.

To me, and many others from my experience, the value of civil discussion is that keeps the ability to communicate and HEAR open.

[shortymack]

You can analyze until youre blue in the face but the only way to really know is hands on. I dont like pizza, and others think Im crazy, but I would never of known that without taking a bite.

[stevedenver]

mighta been a bad pizza huh? LOL

[shortymack]

Every pizza is a bad pizza to me, but in-n-out, now thats a different story!!!

Thanks for the lol, I hope not to come across so seriously and I do like and invite discussion as well. Its all good as they say.

[DataNick]

Every pizza is a bad pizza to me, but in-n-out, now thats a different story!!!

Thanks for the lol, I hope not to come across so seriously and I do like and invite discussion as well. Its all good as they say.

IN-N-OUT....now that's what a hamburger is all about!

[mandolirius]

Given some of the responses to Nick, I'd think twice about how I might ask a question, or request feedback around here.

I don't see that he's been treated badly. As I said, his offer to be "educated" was not expressed very diplomatically, imho. I think he's reaped what he's sown to some extent and I don't think it's been particularly mean-spirited. Go back and read the forum guidelines. Lively discussion, it says. I'd say this thread meet the criteria.

[terzinator]

what's your feeling on BlueChip picks?

Never been to a dedicated camp, but been to workshops at fests, and whatnot... Some are great, some not so much. So much of it has to do with the instructor, and whether he/she is (inspiring, focused, thoughtful, attentive, coherent, unambiguous, etc...). I've been to workshops where the instructor likes to show off what they know, and some where they come across as patronizing or condescending. And those are no fun, obviously. But I've been to workshops where the instructor seems truly interested in helping you discover what you can do. Steve Kaufman is one of those guys.

I would think at the camps, there is an effort to put people with similar skills/abilities together, for the most part. Festival workshops can be a mixed bag of sheer beginners and seasoned players. (Even if the clinic is designed for a particular skill level.)

I'd love to attend one of these (that Compton Monroe camp sounds awesome, and Jorma's Fur Peace camp, too), but I'm guessing it'll have to wait until the kids are older and I have more free time!

I think your friend should have been the one to post here; he's the one who should be taken to task for not paying attention at the camp he attended!

[KristinEliza]

I attended my first camp 8 years ago and contiue to go to it annuallly. Five years ago I added a second workshop and continue to attend it annually. Last year I added a third camp and will probably attend it again this year.

The majority of the instruction I get is NOT in my area of interest, but I ALWAYS get some little kernal of knowledge/insight into my playing from every class! Now, if you compare that to the money I spend to go there, you might think that is a waste of time...and you would probably be right!

But there is so much more to these camps and workshops than just the instruction. I have met so many fabulous friends/musicians/composers through these camps that it is priceless! And this is the only venue where I get to play 'this style' of music with others (it gets boring playing alone at home)...so again...priceless.

To each their own...

And as far as this being the instructor's vacation???? As a teacher, I certainly don't consider August-June a vacation!!!!