Octave strings on a regular mandolin

[remington.vandergriff]

Is it possible to put a set of octave mandolin strings on a regular mandolin? I see the Gold Tone guitar mandolins which say they are the same octave as an octave mando...

I know it would take nut/bridge tooling, but would the instrument support the tension? Would their be room for all the strings on the fretboard to play? Would it sound any good? Has anyone done this?

Thanks!

[Mandobart]

The tension would be too low to use OM strings tuned an octave below a standard mandolin, on a standard scale mandolin. OM strings are designed for a ~20" - ~24" scale. I don't know if anyone has done this for mandolin, but I have a fiddle with special octave strings designed to be tuned one octave below standard tuning. The result is a "chin cello", an instrument in the cello range that you play as a fiddle. In my case, these strings have been prone to breaking (see this thread). As I state in the thread I simply replaced the octave E with a violin D tuned to an E (one octave below the normal E; think 2nd fret on the D string). I replaced the octave A with a violin G tune to A=220 Hz. When the D broke I used a viola C string tuned up one step. The sensicore octave G hasn't broken yet.

You could do the same thing with a mandolin; use a pair of D's tuned up to E, a pair of G's tuned up to A. For the octave D and G you'll need to find strings that are ~ 2x the diameter of the D's and G's you normally use. A rule of thumb that has worked for me when adding octave higher strings (I use octave pairs on my OM and mandocello) is you can double the frequency (one octave higher) if you halve the diameter. For your case, a short scale octave mandolin, double the diameter of each string and tune an octave below normal. The tension will be relatively the same as before. The problem is, you still have a small sound box so volume will be low. My chin cello doesn't have the volume and resonance of an actual cello, but it sounds cool for certain applications. And I installed pickups in it so I can boost the level for playing live.

You don't need to change the bridge to get the idea of how it will sound. The nut could be an issue; you will have to widen the slots. Easy enough to go back with a new nut if you don't like it. Fiddle nuts are more forgiving than mando, in my experience.

[mandroid]

Reading the numbers, off the back of a set of Octave mandolin strings
they are only slightly larger, a few thousandths, than mandolin strings ,

its the scale length that is so much longer plus the slightly thicker string
that lets you drop that Octave..


I use Octave strings tuned to mandola pitch on a mandola , in that situation they are slightly thinner
than a set sold as Mandola strings.

To get that C on a mandolin scale the C is a lot fatter ..

[mrmando]

Following Mandobart's "double the diameter" rule, a set of D'Addario J78 mandocello strings should serve for this purpose.

Trouble is, a mandocello is significantly wider at the nut than a mandolin, to make room for the wider strings. 1.25" is considered pretty wide for a mandolin nut, but the aggregate width of a set of J78s is 0.356". You have to cut your slots so the paired strings don't slap into each other or get pushed off the fretboard by your fingers, and yet are spaced in four distinct courses, and you have at most 0.894" of nut left to work with. In terms of practicality and playability, it's not going to be an easy task. Then, supposing that you do manage to get it set up with octave strings, there's the question of tone. The strings might tune to pitch but that doesn't guarantee that they won't sound like rubber bands on a shoebox. And there's a reason lower-pitched instruments have bigger bodies: low notes require not only bigger strings but a bigger vibrating surface. You'd be asking a standard mandolin body to resonate at frequencies it simply wasn't designed for. According to Darol Anger, the octave violin thing works best with instruments that are overbuilt, so perhaps what you'd need here is a '70s Gibson.

Really, though, if you want octave sounds from a standard mando, go electric and get an octave pedal.

[mandroid]

The Roland guitar synth has a Bass setting even better than the simple octave pedal,
synth access modified mandolins are only a thou or so, to alter..
probably dont need it Acoustic..

Though I do wonder about rewired Godin A8's ..

[DataNick]

The tension would be too low to use OM strings tuned an octave below a standard mandolin, on a standard scale mandolin. OM strings are designed for a ~20" - ~24" scale. I don't know if anyone has done this for mandolin, but I have a fiddle with special octave strings designed to be tuned one octave below standard tuning. The result is a "chin cello", an instrument in the cello range that you play as a fiddle. In my case, these strings have been prone to breaking (see this thread). As I state in the thread I simply replaced the octave E with a violin D tuned to an E (one octave below the normal E; think 2nd fret on the D string). I replaced the octave A with a violin G tune to A=220 Hz. When the D broke I used a viola C string tuned up one step. The sensicore octave G hasn't broken yet.

You could do the same thing with a mandolin; use a pair of D's tuned up to E, a pair of G's tuned up to A. For the octave D and G you'll need to find strings that are ~ 2x the diameter of the D's and G's you normally use. A rule of thumb that has worked for me when adding octave higher strings (I use octave pairs on my OM and mandocello) is you can double the frequency (one octave higher) if you halve the diameter. For your case, a short scale octave mandolin, double the diameter of each string and tune an octave below normal. The tension will be relatively the same as before. The problem is, you still have a small sound box so volume will be low. My chin cello doesn't have the volume and resonance of an actual cello, but it sounds cool for certain applications. And I installed pickups in it so I can boost the level for playing live.

You don't need to change the bridge to get the idea of how it will sound. The nut could be an issue; you will have to widen the slots. Easy enough to go back with a new nut if you don't like it. Fiddle nuts are more forgiving than mando, in my experience.

That is waaaay cool!

[multidon]

I think you misunderstood the instrument description. The Gold Tone GM6 is an octave guitar which means it plays an octave higher than standard guitar. An octave mandolin plays one octave lower than standard mandolin. Two totally different animals and the term octave used in different contexts.

[Mandobart]

I think you misunderstood the instrument description. The Gold Tone GM6 is an octave guitar which means it plays an octave higher than standard guitar. An octave mandolin plays one octave lower than standard mandolin. Two totally different animals and the term octave used in different contexts.

So the question is stringing up a mandolin to play an octave higher than a standard mandolin? That I'd like to see (and hear)

[Kieran]

So the question is stringing up a mandolin to play an octave higher than a standard mandolin? That I'd like to see (and hear)

Or how about tuned with octaval strings on the G and D? (one thick and one thin an octave apart,with the thin one an octave higher than normal mandolin G and D) Sort of like an octave up from the bouzouki.Has anyone tried that? It might ring sweet..

Kieran
http://www.moloneymusic.com

[mrmando]

Yeah, Mike Compton used to string his Ajr snakehead that way.

[Bertram Henze]

Really, though, if you want octave sounds from a standard mando, go electric and get an octave pedal.

What's wrong with getting an octave mando?

Now does he feel his title hang loose about him, like a giant’s robe upon a dwarfish thief. (Shakespeare Macbeth)

[ald]

I knew an Irish mandolin player many, many years ago who told me he had his mandolin specially made with a stronger neck so he could use banjo strings. It certainly sounded very good. When I told a luthier friend about this more recently he said it couldn't be done, implying the said mandolin player must have been codding me!

[Mandobart]

Or how about tuned with octaval strings on the G and D? (one thick and one thin an octave apart,with the thin one an octave higher than normal mandolin G and D) Sort of like an octave up from the bouzouki.Has anyone tried that? It might ring sweet..

Kieran
http://www.moloneymusic.com

I've done it and didn't really care for it. I love the octave pairs on my longer-scale stringed instruments; where there is already much more sustain, volume and mellow tone than on the mandolin. To me it made the mandolin sound too thin.

[Pasha Alden]

Hello all
What a fascinating discussion. Never thought of the possibility of tuning the strings octaves apart, though I wondered if the sound would be too thin. I love the OM. Would love to attempt it, but I do believe my tiny hands would prove to be a hinderance. I just had a long practice on my list of songs for my next live performance. Trying very hard to coax all the higher notes out of the old mandolin.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

Vanillamandolin

[mrmando]

I knew an Irish mandolin player many, many years ago who told me he had his mandolin specially made with a stronger neck so he could use banjo strings. It certainly sounded very good. When I told a luthier friend about this more recently he said it couldn't be done, implying the said mandolin player must have been codding me!

I doubt you would need a stronger neck for that ... banjo strings tend to run pretty light.

[Mandobart]

I love the OM. Would love to attempt it, but I do believe my tiny hands would prove to be a hinderance...

See Sarah Jarosz and Sierra Hull. My hands are twice the size of theirs, but I'll not likely ever equal either of their skills on the OM. Don't count yourself out yet!

[Dr H]

I would like to ask the OP to clarify a bit. Were you thinking of taking a regular 8-string mandolin, and changing one string in each course to sound an octave higher or an octave lower?

I agree with previous posters that you might conceivably pair the low G and D strings with an octave higher string, but I seriously doubt you're going to be able to do that with the A and E strings. An octave higher A is going to be A5, and the E would have to be all the way up to an E6.

I recently acquired a hualyacho, which the little available information I've been able to find suggests should be tuned a 4th or a 5th above the charango -- well, after playing with it for a month, I don't believe it. A 4th up means that one of the courses has to be tuned to A5 (a 5th takes it up to B5!), which is the A above the open E string on the mandolin. I've tried a dozen different materials and gauges of strings on that instrument and I can't get any of them higher than a G# without snapping. That's the A you'd be looking at, not to mention an E in the octave above that.

Now you might be able to put higher octaves on the G and D, and lower octaves on the A and E. That could well be interesting, but I suspect it isn't going to sound much like a mandolin anymore, at that point. You will have a lot of strings tuned pretty close together in pitch, which makes me think the effect is going to be more that of an instrument in re-entrant tuning, like a uke or a charango (albeit with the additional volume provided by metal strings).

[Pasha Alden]

Well, Dr H that is an interesting take on octaves - I did not consider the octaves on the E and A strings, though now that you mention that possibility I cannot help but wonder if as you wondered the mandolin will still retain the old mandolin sound?

Always thought the mandolin starts third g and has the fourth e string? What is the highest note in which octave reached on the mandolin? Thought I hear things like fifth to sixth octaves?

[mandroid]

My picking Buddy has a TC Irish Zouk, it came with octave paired [ala 12 string guitar] Gg and Dd strings.
Banjo sized Case..

[Dr H]

Well, Dr H that is an interesting take on octaves - I did not consider the octaves on the E and A strings, though now that you mention that possibility I cannot help but wonder if as you wondered the mandolin will still retain the old mandolin sound?

Always thought the mandolin starts third g and has the fourth e string? What is the highest note in which octave reached on the mandolin? Thought I hear things like fifth to sixth octaves?

If I'm parsing your question correctly: in scientific pitch notation, the mandolin in standard tuning is tuned to G3-G3, D4-D4, A4-A4, E5-E5.

In frequencies that's aproximately G~196Hz, D~294Hz, A=440Hz, E~659Hz

If you have a mandolin with 20 frets, the highest available fretted note is C7~2093Hz

[s11141827]

The tension would be too low to use OM strings tuned an octave below a standard mandolin, on a standard scale mandolin. OM strings are designed for a ~20" - ~24" scale. I don't know if anyone has done this for mandolin, but I have a fiddle with special octave strings designed to be tuned one octave below standard tuning. The result is a "chin cello", an instrument in the cello range that you play as a fiddle. In my case, these strings have been prone to breaking (see this thread). As I state in the thread I simply replaced the octave E with a violin D tuned to an E (one octave below the normal E; think 2nd fret on the D string). I replaced the octave A with a violin G tune to A=220 Hz. When the D broke I used a viola C string tuned up one step. The sensicore octave G hasn't broken yet.

You could do the same thing with a mandolin; use a pair of D's tuned up to E, a pair of G's tuned up to A. For the octave D and G you'll need to find strings that are ~ 2x the diameter of the D's and G's you normally use. A rule of thumb that has worked for me when adding octave higher strings (I use octave pairs on my OM and mandocello) is you can double the frequency (one octave higher) if you halve the diameter. For your case, a short scale octave mandolin, double the diameter of each string and tune an octave below normal. The tension will be relatively the same as before. The problem is, you still have a small sound box so volume will be low. My chin cello doesn't have the volume and resonance of an actual cello, but it sounds cool for certain applications. And I installed pickups in it so I can boost the level for playing live.

You don't need to change the bridge to get the idea of how it will sound. The nut could be an issue; you will have to widen the slots. Easy enough to go back with a new nut if you don't like it. Fiddle nuts are more forgiving than mando, in my experience.

I guess you need to put more graphite in the bridge & nut so they don't break. Also Geared tuners will relieve tension to prevent them from breaking. Also tune them up slowly so they don't break

[s11141827]

The tension would be too low to use OM strings tuned an octave below a standard mandolin, on a standard scale mandolin. OM strings are designed for a ~20" - ~24" scale. I don't know if anyone has done this for mandolin, but I have a fiddle with special octave strings designed to be tuned one octave below standard tuning. The result is a "chin cello", an instrument in the cello range that you play as a fiddle. In my case, these strings have been prone to breaking (see this thread). As I state in the thread I simply replaced the octave E with a violin D tuned to an E (one octave below the normal E; think 2nd fret on the D string). I replaced the octave A with a violin G tune to A=220 Hz. When the D broke I used a viola C string tuned up one step. The sensicore octave G hasn't broken yet.

You could do the same thing with a mandolin; use a pair of D's tuned up to E, a pair of G's tuned up to A. For the octave D and G you'll need to find strings that are ~ 2x the diameter of the D's and G's you normally use. A rule of thumb that has worked for me when adding octave higher strings (I use octave pairs on my OM and mandocello) is you can double the frequency (one octave higher) if you halve the diameter. For your case, a short scale octave mandolin, double the diameter of each string and tune an octave below normal. The tension will be relatively the same as before. The problem is, you still have a small sound box so volume will be low. My chin cello doesn't have the volume and resonance of an actual cello, but it sounds cool for certain applications. And I installed pickups in it so I can boost the level for playing live.

You don't need to change the bridge to get the idea of how it will sound. The nut could be an issue; you will have to widen the slots. Easy enough to go back with a new nut if you don't like it. Fiddle nuts are more forgiving than mando, in my experience.

Helicore Octave strings are designed to avoid that problem cause they're steel

[Explorer]

Does anyone else think these necrobump responses are to build a history before the serious spam begins?

[Mark Gunter]

Well, there is the case of mando-tech

He has been bumping old threads for years, I cannot devise a logical explanation. He’s not a spammer, but I don’t think he ever replies to a current thread, only dead ones.

most recent example I remember is a two year old thread, but he often bumps decades old threads.

Recent example: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-Strings/page2

[Mandobart]

Helicore Octave strings are designed to avoid that problem cause they're steel

I'm guessing from the context of the two recent posts you're refering to the breaking Sensicore octave viola strings 9 years ago? I found the problem on the C string breaking was not enough room between the peg and bottom of the pegbox to accommodate the thicker string wound on the peg (it's a 5 string so kind of crowded to start). I chiseled out the opening for more clearance and no troubles since.