Terrible singer in the band

[mrbook]

In our band, our former bad singer insisted on singing The Long Black Veil at our next gig. After practice, the rest of the band asked "what are we going to do about it?" Actually, I think they asked what I was going to do about it, and I said we would put the song in the 3rd set, where we could play it after everyone hopefully liked us, and we could tape it and play it back for him. We played, we taped it, and played it at our next practice, and he said, "Great - not as bad as I thought." We were back to square one.
Next gig, we started playing, and I realized I had put the song 4th in the first set, when we were still establishing ourselves with the audience. I leaned over and asked "do you want to sing it, or do you think I should?" When he said I should decide, I unhesitatingly replied, "I'll do it." As I mentioned before, within a couple weeks he was gone (from the band, not dead).

The sad part was that he and I started the band together, and he was the one who brought me back into performing after a 12-year hiatus. Even years later I feel bad, even if it had to be said. Not everyone can sing, and even those who can should realize that they may not be able to sing everything. I've heard a few tapes that made me realize some songs weren't for me, and we sometimes pass a song around a few people before finding the right singer.

Back to the Bill Monroe method, he may not have fired anyone, but as I understand it he hastened some departures by not talking to certain band members for days or even weeks - except perhaps to walk by them and mumble "you're not cutting it." I sure wouldn't have wanted to hear that from him, or even anyone else, so we just wait things out - for weeks, or months, or whatever it takes. #

Any band is not just a group of musicians, but in the best situations they are also friends, and you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. We also feel that rather than trying to achieve a particular sound, we try to build something out of everyone's individual abilities. Sometimes it takes awhile to utilize everyone's strengths, but we have fun, and people like the music. As long as you get something out of it, keep going.

[mandocrustacean]

I don't know what to do about keeping/firing her but I think we can turn that into a country song and make millions!

The Eagles song pretty much covers it. As she was singing it I thought, "Okay, I think I'm beginning to understand some things." And I was cringing inside as we played the song.

I don't feel sorry for her but even though she's the newest member of the band, apparently she's been around a lot longer than I have so I'm just going to pick with them until I meet some other like minded pickers. Sorry this has been so anticlimatic for those of you looking for some drama!

[John Ritchhart]

Are you guys doing this for money? Do you need the money? If you're trying to put a wage earning band together then skill assessment should be part of the process. You probably ought to do it on everyone. If you're just doing it for fun then I'd go ahead and date her.

[mandocrustacean]

Well, I'm married plus she's too old and too homely.:D
We don't make much money. Its mostly a learning experience for me. A year ago I could only play open chords and a few melodies now I'm chopping away and playing leads on dozens of songs. So I think I'll stick with it in spite of the annoying singer.

[tallgirl1204]

Hey, I'm new to this board but joined to chime in (thanks Dave for the heads-up, and no, this dilemma is NOT about me)-- I agree with a lot of the other folks--

If you like these people, don't burn bridges-- if you really want to play hard and seek musical perfection, leave and find others - People join (and leave) bands for all kinds of reasons-- but if you're in any kind of small community, try to keep it civil--

My favorite current band (four people) has the following reasons for its continuing existence, at least from my POV:
-- Three of us are learning new instruments
-- All of us are improving our ability to sing harmony
-- One of us (me) is singing some leads for the first time in her life (They asked me! #I resisted! I swear!)
-- All of us are singing/playing tunes we would never have thought of on our own
-- Three of us are learning to play in better tune (can't do anything about the accordion)
-- One of us is getting time away from his teenagers
-- Two of us are pretending we have social lives
-- One of us is avoiding thinking about drinking and why he can't do it any more
-- Three of us are getting to play in public more than we ever have before
-- One of us is learning to play with others instead of being just an incredible solo act
-- All of us are getting to be friends and extended family to one another. No small thing in this e-universe.

So... why are you there? #And why do you think the others are there? #And... #would you be happy to be in a musically better band with less-friendly folks? #What might this band be forgiving you for that you are lacking?

Good luck with your decision about what to do!

[John Flynn]

I know I may have posted with a different tone earlier, but I agree with Tallgirl. I had a conversation recently that is appropos. There is a lady in my area who has played for many, many years with some of the legendary old-time players in the Midwest. Most consider her to be both a great fiddler and a great guitarist, plus a pretty fair banjo player. I have a lot of respect for her wisdom.

I had privledge to visit her at her house since this thread started and she told me something that has really been running around in my head. She said that her biggest regret in all her years in music is that she has never been able to maintain a good band over a long period of time. Groups get together, burn bright for a while, do a CD and a bunch of gigs and then burn out. The breakups are never over music. They are always over social and business issues. Her advice to me was that if you can make a band hang together as people, hang onto to that band for dear life. The music issues can always be worked out if the group can just stay together as a group.

[mrbook]

Bands always come and go, but the best music I've made is with people who I got along with as friends - not that we are always really close, but we talk about things, have lunch together now and then, and they might even go to concerts or festivals with me so I don't have to force my wife or daughter to accompany me. We are serious about the music, and when everyone gets along they enjoy playing together, and they should play better and work to make the group sound better. It works for us.

We are talking about bad singers. Singers can improve if they are willing to realize (or be made to realize) that they need improvement. Practice improves singing just like playing, but I think singers have a harder time realizing that they need to work on their craft - it's not just pitch, but timing, phrasing, diction, and more. The choice of songs also makes a difference - there are a lot of songs I like that should be sung by someone (anyone) other than me. Their voice is an instrument just like every other one in the band, and good singers in every style of music know that. I recently saw a show by Bob Paisley and his band, and Dan Paisley actually got applause for his singing on a couple verses, just like the instrumentalists got after a hot break. I never saw that before, but he deserved it, too.

If you like playing with someone, help them along and give them a chance to get better, just like you would like someone to do to you. If they can't sing, encourage them to play. If they can't do either, or you can't get along with them - that may be another matter.

[tallgirl1204]

oh, oh, oh-- two more cents! If you want to stay in this band, here's something to try-- I play occasionally in a contra dance band with a professional classical musician (clarinetist) who plays fiddle just for fun. He is SO much better than the rest of us in terms of his knowledge and ear, and I must say, in his ability to encourage us to be better ourselves.

He never criticizes. He looks for the good and catches it and points it out every time. If I play a good break, he hoots and hollers with pride. If I screw up... nothing-- he just keeps playing hard and dragging me along in his wake. This band is recreation for him, and he refuses to allow anything negative to make its way in.

So, is there some song this woman sings better than others? Parts of songs that go well? Is part of her range better than others-- does she do better Bonnie Raitt than Emmy Lou, for example? Try finding the good--however small-- and praising it-- can't hurt, might help-- and might help you feel better about her too (I know I've been overly perky here, but I do feel your pain...)

Good luck!

[Tom C]

I don't have that problem. We all sing lousy. Once in a while you must drink alot and play lousy. (Like tonight! -not performing, just partying)

[duuuude]

Yep, we'll all be singin off key tonight!

[Michael H Geimer]

TallGirl,
You've got some good wisdom in your post here. I really like how you pointed out everyone's motivation for playing together in your group. I think that is the real secret of leadership; understanding the motivations and goals of the people you hope to lead.

I have been in a lot of bands over the years - not as many as mandodude, but then who has? I've heard doors slam, voices raised, even seen some tears roll. I finally started to see that we - as bandmates - somehow feel OK saying really awful things to our friends because we think their shortcommings will keep The Band from achieving this or that career goal. Rarely true IMHO.

There are a lot of ways to get gigs, get singed, make money, etc. There are compartively few ways to find and hold onto long time friends, and a friend is much more valuable than many of those career goals.

- Benig

[mandocrustacean]

Update: We gave her a chance to be a part of the group and grow because we knew that she was enjoying the experience but after a while she started losing interest. We discussed the matter and decided that she would be more of a hindrance if we continued with her singing. I guess things worked out. She'll probably be bummed for a while but our guitar player said she'll get over it. Its a tough call, we'd like to give her an outlet so she can get out of her house once a week and have some fun but on the other hand it will be better for landing gigs. She'll probably sing a couple at the local 4th of July gig that way she can shine for the hometown crowd.

[levin4now]

mandocrustacean,

thanks for the update. i'm sure i'm not the only one here who wondered "what ever became of that beleagured bandmember with a bad singer?"....

Now who's singing?

[John Flynn]

Yeah, thanks for the update. This has been one of the better threads in a long time and I wanted to hear the ending also.

And I would also like to add to the feedback about Tallgirl's post. I think it was very poignant and on point. As I told her in a PM, I made an email out of it and sent it to my band. I got really good feedback on it.

[mandocrustacean]

Postlogue: The "terrible singer" ended up hanging around until the present day, performing with us, much to my chagrin. #Life went on. #At the end of March my wife and I split and she moved out. #The next four months were the worst four months of my life (we both had a lot to figure out). #Early in July, we decided to give things another shot (sorry about all the personal stuff-you'll see where this is going). #We've had our shaky times but I think we'll be okay. #Anyway, tonight my wife came with me to band practice. #The "terrible singer" wasn't there so I had my wife sing with us. #Everyone else in the band loved my wife (she must have learned to sing while she was gone) so she is now going to be our new female singer. #She's really excited about it. Our guitar player said he was just waiting for someone better to come along (I know, that sounds harsh ). #His wife is our bass player. #He said bringing her on as bass player was the best thing for their marriage. #So, there's a nice dramatic twist for all of you reality show fans out there.

[mandoJeremy]

Man, that is a happy ending to the start of this thread and I hope the marriage goes great!

[mandofiddle]

Yeah no kidding. Life has a funny way of working things out huh? Good luck to you two!

[mandopete]

Interesting story, are you folks playing bluegrass? I've been in two bands with husband-wife combinations. It is an intersting dynamic from the outside. Having couples in a band seems like a common occurance in bluegrass. My wife is no big fan of the music, nor does she sing or play an instrument.

[mcashion]

Get her in touch with an old time band...none of us can sing and no one expects it! Actually, if she just loves the music, perhaps encouraging her to play an instrument of some kind. You never know, she may have some potential there. I would love to sing, but know that I can only do back-up....wayyyy back, where the mic barely reaches, but I love playing the music and being part of the group. It all depends on whether you like her as a person or not. If you do, and let her get up in front of an audience sounding terrible and thinking that all of you think she's great, she is going to embarass herself and never forgive you.

[patsites]

Personally, I would refuse to have anyone in my band who doesn't play an instrument, here's a few reasons why:

A: they usually want everyone to learn a song that they want to sing, regardless of difficulty, key, etc, not to mention they can't teach it to anyone because they don't know the chords or structure.

B: inexperienced singers who don't play instruments tend to be off key a lot because they don't have anyway to practice alone and keep a good tone. They think that singing to themselves in the shower or singing along with a recording is just as good as actually playing and singing at the same time.

c: they usually develop ego's far greater than everyone else in the band and believe it's all about them. Front men/women need to be really great if they expect a good group of pickers to back them up.

d: most lead singers hate standing around while the pickers play instrumentals which are especially crucial in bluegrass.

e: last, but not least, they skip lots of practices because they usually feel like they can just show up, sing their parts, and everything is great. They don't realize their voice is an instrument that needs to practice just as much as a mando/guitar/etc.

Just my 2 cents based on experiences with multiple bands and multiple people in my own band. You could potentially approach your situation from this standpoint and maybe convince the guitarist why she isn't cutting the mustard.

[earthsave]

My wife and I are in a stringband together and our lead singer/guitar and bass player are also married.

[TommyK]

1st, maybe I am misreading things, but if you are a band, playing for money, how come nobody has recorded a gig and done a post mortem??? #If you do the professional thing and record a gig once in a while, for analysis purposes, you may find out the banjo player is the most musical! #But, knowing how EACH OF YOU performs is valuable information.

2.) Has anyone thought about getting her a Janet Jackson costume? #When the costume 'malfunctions', nobody will be listening to her anyway.

[jim simpson]

I was approached by an older fellow recently at a gig where my band was ready to play. He asked me if we let guests join us on stage to sing a tune. I told him no, that we had a prepared show and were hired as such. He then gave me a cassette of himself and told me that If we played the gig next year, that we would want him to sing with us. I thanked him and said I would look forward to listening to it. Well on the long drive home I popped in the cassette and tried to contain myself. He sounded like Ralph Stanley on a bad day, he had no sense of timing and came in too early throughout the selections. I wouldn't have minded his singing quality so much if he could have at least sang in time with the backup band. I really think he is typical of a lot of folks that have no clue how bad they are (think American Hero tryouts). I don't mind some rough edges in any sort of roots/folk/bluegrass, etc. but there has to be a level of talent to be able to participate. Now if my band does this gig again, what will I tell the old fellow about his tape?

[Mark Normand]

This is still a great topic. I am so jealous of you married couples that play together. You are miles ahead just for that reason alone. Nothing like having an instant band anytime you want to pick/play!

[mrbook]

Every now and then our group plays shows for a local country music promoter (a real character himself, but that's another story), where we are expected to let people from the audience sing with us during our later sets. I haven't met anyone yet who can keep a beat or really sing in tune, drunk or sober, and there is always a bit of both. It happens after we have played a bit and established ourselves with the audience, so it doesn't hurt our reputation, and people like to see their friends on stage, no matter what they sound like. We always go away with a few new stories to tell. One guy really wanted to join the band, and didn't want to take no for an answer, offering the additional bonus that his "old lady played the accordion."

I would rather have a bad singer sit in than a harmonica player any day.