Page 1 of 6 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 135

Thread: Variations On The "Single" Mic Approach

  1. #1
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    I went to see John Reischman and The Jaybirds at the Tractor Tavern here in Seattle a couple of weeks ago and I was very impressed with their sound. #In the past John has used several variations of the "single" mic for sound reinforcement.

    At this show they were using an AT-4033 for all of the vocal work and individual mics (not sure what types) for the instruments. #Any singing was done directly into AT-4033, but all of the breaks were done on the individual mic's. #The bass was on a wrap.

    The last time I saw The Del McCoury band, I think they were using two AT-4033's. #I know that Hot Rize will use two "wing" mics on either side of the main mic.

    So I'm curious to hear how many of you are using this hybrid approach within the context of a bluegrass band instrumentation and how effective it may be.



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  2. #2
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Orcas Island, Washington
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    Jim Nunally has put a lot of thought and effort into cracking this nut, so I would give a lot of credence to the stage plots that he comes up with for the Jaybirds...

    They were using 2 AKG 451s at head-level for vocals/instruments a year or so ago...

    How it's gonna sounds is only part of the problem, though...

    Does the band want to work on getting the choreography right for a true one-mic setup ala Del?? #(Well, that's 2 mics, no?)
    It does take a lot of practice to get that problem solved...

    If you want to see an incredible show around one mic, check out the Cherryholmes.

    There are maybe 6-7 people on stage, and the way they work the mic is pure magic. #
    They make the McCourys look like they're loitering, BION...

  3. #3
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    For this discussion, let's leave the aesthetics of the "choreography" out of the discussion. #I'm really more interested in the notion of a balance of sound between the vocals and instruments. #One thought that comes to mind with John's set up is that the singers are always close together which may add to their ability to hear each other. #Conversely the instruments were relatively far apart. #They don't use any monitors, so they must remain close enough to hear each other.

    What I thought was especially interesting was that when John or Jim went up to AT-4033 to sing, their instruments did not totally drop off. #I assume that this is due to the fact the AT-4033 must have a large cardiod pattern, correct?

    This is fairly similar to what I saw Hot Rize doing last year at Wintergrass. #They would sing into the main mic and take breaks on one of the wings. #The Nashville Bluegrass band did this years ago at Darrington and as I recall it drove the sound-man nuts. #I believe that these extra mic's cause some issues such as phase cancellation or even feedback - any thoughts on those challenges?



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  4. #4
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Orcas Island, Washington
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    "What I thought was especially interesting was that when John or Jim went up to AT-4033 to sing, their instruments did not totally drop off. #I assume that this is due to the fact the AT-4033 must have a large cardiod pattern, correct?"

    Yep...
    The McCourys sound great through 1 or 2 4033s, and they don't even mic the bass...
    It sounds great in the house, and it sounds great on tape...
    Very balanced...

    "The Nashville Bluegrass band did this years ago at Darrington and as I recall it drove the sound-man nuts." #

    It's my experience that anything that anyone does at Darrington drives the soundman nuts... #

    "#I believe that these extra mic's cause some issues such as phase cancellation or even feedback - any thoughts on those challenges? "

    Well, the more mics you put onstage, especially LDCs, the more phase issues become a potential problem...
    If you want to hear a total mess created by multiple LDCs onstage ($35K worth!!), check out the "Down From the Mountain" CD or DVD...

    Those 5-6 Neumann U47s are a phasing nightmare, and SM58s would have done a better job...
    But they sure looked good!

    As far as feedback goes, it's not an issue with these condenser mic'ing techniques as the monitors are usually turned off...

  5. #5
    coprolite mandroid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Outer Spiral Arm, of Galaxy, NW Oregon.
    Posts
    17,103

    Default

    Local 5 pc uses 2 cardoid LD mics,[AKG C3000, I think] on same stand. #one upside down, up/down pattern and left/right make a fair pickup of instruments and vocals, with height of pair somewhat in between. Cardoid patterns are side-by-side, for an adjustable sensitivity spread.




    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Salem Oregon
    Posts
    178

    Default

    Pete, Spruce,

    When the Jaybirds played in Stayton, Oregon a couple of months ago..just before they went to Seattle, Jim was trying out a couple of matched Oktava 012's with omni capsules. They didn't use the LDC that night. It sounded pretty good. Maybe that is what they were using up in Seattle.

    Ken Cartwright has gone to a AT-4047 with Audix SC1 (hypercardiod) wing mics. Those little SC1's kick serious tail.

    Fuzzy

  7. #7
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (Fuzzyway @ Feb. 01 2005, 15:11)
    They didn't use the LDC that night. #It sounded pretty good. #Maybe that is what they were using up in Seattle.
    It was definately an AT-4033. #I have seen them use two smaller mic's in the past. #This was a completely new set up as far as I could tell. #I heartily agree with Spruce that any solution from Jim Nunally most likely has some serious merit. They even left a copy of their stage plot behind and I snatched it up to see what exactly they were using.



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  8. #8
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Definately an AT-4033...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	JR2.jpg 
Views:	189 
Size:	44.3 KB 
ID:	6414  
    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  9. #9
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Not sure what the instrument mic's are...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	JR1.jpg 
Views:	213 
Size:	55.3 KB 
ID:	6415  
    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  10. #10
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    We've been using a 4033 and 3 Oktava 012's for years now and recording the mix right off the board and it sounds studio quality, sound wise. The 012's are for instruments, mando guitar, banjo. Our bass player is also the lead singer and the 4033 picks up his bass so well I sometimes have to use the roll off, besides making sure it's nice and high and not pointed at the bass. Vocals are a pure joy because we hear each other realtime. Besides not having to eat the mic and it picks the instruments great when we come in for harmonys. I'm glad to see that we 4033 fans have a heavyweight like Mr. Nunally backing us up

  11. #11
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,244

    Default

    The comment on the sound at Darrington makes me laugh. ANY setup baffles that sound man ("We've been ROBBED again!!").
    -----------
    Pete Martin
    www.PeteMartin.info
    Jazz and Bluegrass instruction books, videos, articles, transcriptions, improvisation, ergonomics, free recordings, private lessons

    www.WoodAndStringsBand.com
    Jazz trio

    www.AppleValleyWranglers.net
    Western Swing music

  12. #12
    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,244

    Default

    I prefer the idea of playing into individual mics for instruments and singing into one mic. My fav small diaphram mic for mando is a Shure KSM137, like it cause it has 2 bass roll off patterns I can use if needed.
    -----------
    Pete Martin
    www.PeteMartin.info
    Jazz and Bluegrass instruction books, videos, articles, transcriptions, improvisation, ergonomics, free recordings, private lessons

    www.WoodAndStringsBand.com
    Jazz trio

    www.AppleValleyWranglers.net
    Western Swing music

  13. #13
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Sounds like we're hearing a lot of good things about this (John Reischman) set-up. #For my own purposes I am moving in this direction for my own group. #Currently I have a single AT-4033 that we'll use for vocals. #I have two Peavey PVM-480 condenser mic's for instruments, but I will need a third. #The Oktava MC-012's look to be a good fit and at about the right price point. #I'm still going to run the bass on a wrap, most likely an SM58.

    One of the other key elements I noticed to JR's set-up was the formation of a semi-circle with the vocal mic placed at the back of the arch. #I assume that this was done to allow everyone to hear each other. #This presents a bit of challenge in small venues where space is at a premium. #I'm looking into small profile mic stands to reduce the amount of space needed.



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  14. #14
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (petimar @ Feb. 02 2005, 10:44)
    My fav small diaphram mic for mando is a Shure KSM137, like it cause it has 2 bass roll off patterns I can use if needed.
    Looking at the specs for this mic it is described as a "large diaphram" condenser mic. Are you using one of these for live sound reinforcement?
    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  15. #15
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Orcas Island, Washington
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    "I'm still going to run the bass on a wrap, most likely an SM58."

    If you ever run across an EV408 for not a lot of money (75 bucks or so), grab it...
    It's the egg-shaped EV that is mounted on a pivot, and ideal for wrapping and mounting on a string bass...
    Great sounding mic...

    By the way, I saw the Jaybirds in one of those showcase rooms at IBMA last year...
    Small hotel room with drapes and carpets, no mics, and "free" beer...
    Needless to say, it sounded glorious...

  16. #16
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Is the EV408 a model that is not produced anymore? #Couldn't find much about it online. #Found the EV ND468, is that similar?



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	EV_ND468.jpg 
Views:	193 
Size:	18.9 KB 
ID:	6448  
    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  17. #17
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Orcas Island, Washington
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    Yeah, that's the mic that replaced the 408...

    The nice thing about these mics is that you can wrap it and tilt the head so that you get the bass fully on-axis...

    If you wrap a 57 or 58 and secure it to the bass, most likely you are going to get an off-axis image of the bass...
    Not a good thing...

  18. #18
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by (Spruce @ Feb. 02 2005, 16:32)
    The nice thing about these mics is that you can wrap it and tilt the head so that you get the bass fully on-axis...
    Translation...point the mic (egg) at the bass?
    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  19. #19
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    Pete, you should check out the Oktava. I also have a Peavey 480 and that was my mando mic for years until I got hold of the Oktava. The Peavey now sounds kinda muddy to me. Just be sure the one you try out, at like Guitar Center, is the one you take home, if you do The quality is I've been told kinda spotty. The first one I got I didn't notice the saleskid gave me a "new" one. I didn't try it until our next gig and it was dead. Took it back and got a new one no prob, but it was a hassle. That is one good thing about Guitar Center.

  20. #20
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Tony - thanks for the advice. #I was not aware that Guitar Center carried the Oktava microphone. #The only place I could find it on the web was a placed called the Sound Room. #Which capsule are you using?

    I am also curious about how you tested the microphone in the store. Did you plug it into a sound system and try it with an instrument?

    I haven't been overly impressed with the Peavey microphone and have been comptemplating a change for awhile now - any opinion on the Audix SC1 for string instruments (mando, banjo, guitar)?



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  21. #21
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    Pete-Guitar Center was doing a deal after I got my Oktava, 2 for $100 ! I took the Peavy and had them set it up next to the Oktava in the recording room, not the PA room. Way quieter. Did an A-B(with mando) through their board and some KRK monitors. I had my son, Mr. Dogears, go with me too to confirm what I thought I heard. I would much rather use recording caliber board/monitors to test than PA equipment. Also I never see anybody in there because it's so quiet and impressive I guess. A couple of the other saleskids came in just because they couldn't get Peavy and were curious about the mando also. The Oktava come standard with the cardiod capsule in a little funky looking case My 480 is hyper-cardiod. I think that's why it has such outrageous "proximity effect". I wouldn't get rid of my 480 because it comes in handy and you can never have too many mics.
    I've not tried the Audix, I know David Grisman endorses/uses their products. I would think they are worth a look.
    For years I've taken somebody with me I can trust when I do any deal. It keeps me from being intimidated by the salesfolk and gives me an instant second opinion.

  22. #22
    Registered Mandolin User mandopete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Clearview, WA
    Posts
    7,219

    Default

    Tony,

    Thanks for the advice (again). #I'm actually off to GC today to investigate some mic stands and I will inquire about the Oktava mic's. #I may opt to try it through a sound system as that is how I intend to use it. #Never realized that the Peavey 480 was a "hyper-cardiod" pattern, but I would agree with respect to the proximity effect, hence the search for another mic.

    ...Mr. Dogears?



    2015 Chevy Silverado
    2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
    1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"

  23. #23
    wood butcher Spruce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Orcas Island, Washington
    Posts
    6,172

    Default

    "Translation...point the mic (egg) at the bass? "

    Yep...
    I've only mounted a couple 408s on string basses, but both times it was a snap....
    The "egg" fits between a couple strings and points towards the top of the bass which is ideal...

  24. #24
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    Pete- Mr.Dogears is my son. His ears are what mine used to be before old age and too many industrial noise level jobs! Good luck on the PA room. The times I've gone in there its usually being used by some heavy hitter and we couldn't talk much less try a sound test. You know we just had a personel change and lost a guitar and picked up a banjo. I'm really thinking the 480 might really sound good for a banjo, take some of the "edge" off.

  25. #25
    garded
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    now Los Osos, CA
    Posts
    1,996

    Default

    You know I don't want to hijack your thread, but this is PA related. Ever heard of SmaartLive? It's the program that all the "bigboys" in sound use to test/monitor the sound system. My old highschool buddy did pro sound for a living and was telling about it and on my last visit he ran me through the "for dummy's" version. You need a lap top and a Behringer omni mic(don't remember the #, but it's very accurate and only $40!) and portable mic pre(he uses an M-Audio).
    You setup with the mic/laptop out in the "audience" and use the program to send either test signals or you can use regular cd's and the program compares, in real time what's going in(cd or test sigs) and what the mic "hears". Since I don't have a laptop etc. this is something for the future, hopefully. You can "see" and fix all kinds of problems with this, eq/feedback, phase etc. My buddy does all this crazy stuff like "time align" these huge systems you see in large venue's to get all the speakers in phase. Explains why sometimes everything sounds like mud and sometimes it's crystal clear. He was telling me some of the rack units now are setup to interface and can be controlled from the laptop/program. I know we all have our hands full with just a head, a couple of mics and some speakers, but boy wouldn't be nice to instead of "ringing" a room and guessing, to analyze and be done. Another great feature is leave it going in eq/monitor mode that can mimic your eq sliders and it remember's/shows you where your feedback is/was happening and you just turn down that slider. For me this is the next step/leap.

Similar Threads

  1. "ralph's banjo special" = "daybreak in dixie"?
    By lespaul_79 in forum Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants
    Replies: 5
    Last: Apr-17-2008, 6:33pm
  2. Variations on "doen daphne..." by john craton
    By Alex Timmerman in forum Orchestral, Classical, Italian, Medieval, Renaissance
    Replies: 8
    Last: Apr-06-2008, 10:05am
  3. Primetime mandolin "sighting" (make that "hearing"
    By Jim MacDaniel in forum General Mandolin Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last: May-19-2006, 9:36pm
  4. "Last Letter Home" from "Late as Usual"
    By Fretbear in forum Bluegrass, Newgrass, Country, Gospel Variants
    Replies: 4
    Last: Nov-22-2004, 3:42pm
  5. Gotoh "Mini" enclose single machine heads
    By Magnus Geijer in forum Equipment
    Replies: 6
    Last: May-02-2004, 9:45pm

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •