Tone Gard

[Jeff Budz]

Bmac, your comments are adorable!!! I just want to eat them up. I promise; I'll get off your lawn!

Neil:
Your figure of $75 for a tone gard is interesting. I had no idea they were that expensive. My two best sounding (and probably loudest) mandolins are both mid-1930s Strad-O-Lins. One cost me a little over $100 and the other roughly $60 plus some work time repairing them. And, by the way I have played them against Webers and they stood up well volume-wise and tone-wise. My point is that $75 may take you one step up and allow one to buy a little better sounding instrument. $300 will buy some pretty interesting used instruments if you buy on eBay or Craigs list here in the USA. There is always some risk but I have been quite lucky in my purchases.

[Toni Schula]

I recently was playing around with in ear monitoring in combination with a clip on mic on my mando. There I noticed what a big difference it makes when you hold the instrument away from your body. In this setup I could hear it the same way as the audience would have through the PA.

So my opinion is: either hold the mando away from your body as described in previous posts or use a toneguard or miss this additional quality.

[swain]

I would have to disagree that the top players don't use it. What about Grisman, Marshall, Thile and Statman. I've seen them and they all use it.

Regards

Add Roland White to the list of tone gard users. Add me to the list of happy owners. Don't need to worry so much about belt buckles, etc.

[Ben Cooper]

Well, this thread answers most all of my questions about tonegards. I believe I will get one formyself as soon as I finish paying for my latest aqusition. Now I just need to find out about arm rests.........

[mandroid]

also keeps my sweaty T shirt from messing up the old varnished back of my A4.

[Dave Hanson]

It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.

Dave H

[Gary Watkins]

It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.

Dave H

A good mandolin is a lot of money for a little bit of wood!

[Tobin]

It's still a lot of money for a few feet of wire.

Dave H

I'm not sure I'd classify it as wire. It's made from small square bar stock. But as to the value, I'd bet if you went to make one from scratch, designing it and assembling it to fit your mandolin (including material costs), and putting even a modest valuation on the time it takes you to do it, you'll find that just buying a ToneGard is a bargain.

[Pete Jenner]

I'd bet if you went to make one from scratch, designing it and assembling it to fit your mandolin (including material costs), and putting even a modest valuation on the time it takes you to do it, you'll find that just buying a ToneGard is a bargain.

That's a silly thing to say. As an illustration of how silly, transfer your proposition to tuner production. ...and set of Grover 309s is cheaper than a Tone Gard.

Tone Gards are laser cut and powder coated - when produced in volume, they would be pretty cheap to make. Making custom sizes is just a matter of inputting a set of numbers into a software programme.

[Tobin]

That's a silly thing to say. As an illustration of how silly, transfer your proposition to tuner production. ...and set of Grover 309s is cheaper than a Tone Gard.

Tone Gards are laser cut and powder coated - when produced in volume, they would be pretty cheap to make. Making custom sizes is just a matter of inputting a set of numbers into a software programme.

When produced in volume, yes, they are inexpensive. But again, go try to make one yourself and see if you can do it cheaper than you can buy one. If not, then why is it "silly" to say that the price of a ToneGard is a bargain?

Comparing it to the price of Grover 309s is comparing apples to oranges. You're talking about something made by a company who factory-produces them by the thousands (possibly in Asia?) and comparing it to a small business that hand-makes its products in the USA. Any my statement was silly?

[Pete Jenner]

What's hand made about laser cutting?
Why is a factory in Asia any different from a factory in America?

[Tobin]

What's hand made about laser cutting?

How does the ToneGard get assembled and shaped to the curvature of a mandolin? I'm not claiming to know all about the process, but the ToneGard website states that these are handmade. There's cost associated with that.

Why is a factory in Asia any different from a factory in America?

We're talking about cost. Manufacturers with large-scale needs usually move their manufacturing to Asia for one reason: cost. You were the one who made the comparison of tuners to ToneGards on the basis of cost, and I responded that it's comparing apples to oranges. ToneGards are, as I understand it, handmade in the USA. You can't compare the cost of a large-scale manufactured item like tuners to something like that.

[Pete Jenner]

If it's laser cut it doesn't need to be assembled. It's one of the simplest things to make you can imagine. The only thing that get's added are some glue-on pads. I can't imagine the cost of production being much more than 10 bucks but I stand ready to be corrected.

[Tobin]

I think you may be assuming that it's a single piece, laser-cut from a sheet. I don't think that's how it works (the waste would be incredible, not to mention the amount of cutting would be inefficient). As I understand it, the laser-cutting is done on the bar stock or any custom-designed decorative pieces, but the rest of it is piecework that's welded together. I'd have to go look at mine again, but I seem to recall seeing welds at all the joints. I would think it's a fairly detailed assembly process to make sure it comes out to the intended curvature and final shape (we ain't talking flatwork here). Plus the arms have to be installed/bent up, and the pads/tubing have to be installed. Powder-coating ain't cheap either.

Of course, the man himself could explain the process here if he so desires. Personally, I don't think it's that important. I think the price of the ToneGard is very reasonable for what it is, especially coming from a small-scale American businessman who is trying to make a living.

[JeffD]

I think the price of the ToneGard is very reasonable for what it is.

I agree. The cost to me in materials and time to make a single one, for me, of even comparable quality is ridiculously expensive. That he can make a profit manufacturing them is why they are available in the first place.

[Pete Jenner]

Well I think it's way too expensive.
Let's agree to disagree.

[mandroid]

How does the ToneGard get assembled and shaped to the curvature of a mandolin?
I'm not claiming to know all about the process, but the ToneGard website states that these are handmade. .

the older ones were a lot of welded joints, after enough were in the market, he managed to get a CNC cutter time,

to make the holes , to leave just about the same amount of metal remaining
as the welded versions were .. those for the Gibson Mandolin shapes..

other shapes are still a hand made operation with welded joints..

Not selling in the numbers of cars and bicycles, and Beer, real mass production is probably not justified..


I can certainly understand something made in the USA once it arrives in Australia , would cost a bit more
than desired, down under. its a long ways to ship stuff.

[lloving]

Well I think it's way too expensive.
Let's agree to disagree.

Yes i'll agree to disagree. That's the best approach. And don't spend your money on something you think is too expensive, that's your choice.

That said I applaud America's growing cottage industries supporting our love of musical instruments and the Mandolin in particular. If we are not willing to pay a fair price for these items they will not be available in the future. I am sure I may have paid what may seem to some to be "too much" for accessories I purchased directly from the builder but I have seldom been disappointed by the quality or service.

LL

[Polecat]

My suggestion to anyone who thinks that a tone gard is too expensive would be: Build one yourself, cost it up including your time, paying yourself a fair hourly rate, and see if you really think the item is overpriced. The market for these kinds of things is tiny, I cannot believe that there can be any economies of scale to be achieved in the production, so to all intents and purposes it is a cottage industry.
I looked at making myself a tone-gard, a fellow forum member kindly sent me some photos of the thing, and after looking at them, I've decided, rather than brazing a wire construction, I'll carve a "Half second back" (I hope that is comprehensible) out of pear-wood, which should attach to the mandolin with a modified viola shoulder pad clamp. I hope to have it finished within 6 months, and if it is successful I'll post some pictures in the cafe.

[JeffD]

The truth is that, if there is too much room between the costs to manufacture and the selling price, that is an opportunity for the competition. If they can be sold cheaper, at a profit, someone will come in and sell them cheaper.

[Pete Jenner]

My suggestion to anyone who thinks that a tone gard is too expensive would be: Build one yourself, cost it up including your time, paying yourself a fair hourly rate, and see if you really think the item is overpriced. The market for these kinds of things is tiny, I cannot believe that there can be any economies of scale to be achieved in the production, so to all intents and purposes it is a cottage industry.

That's absolutely ridiculous. You don't build things to prove something is overpriced. If that was the case, I'd be making Gibson style mandolins.

For a start the tone gard company is tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production. If I built one I would have to learn new skills, buy new tools and source materials. It's absurd to even compare my costs of making one and tone gard's costs.

Of course there are economies of scale to be had. Buying bulk materials for a start. Even if he is only laser cutting the middle part, he's still achieving enormous savings.

Tone Gard are charging the price the market will bear. If you want to pay that price that's your business
.

[Eric C.]

How dare Tony P., trying to make a few bucks. The nerve...

Whats a real rip off is the $5 bucks i spend on strings. Why, i bet the cost to make those things are only a fraction of that!

[Pete Jenner]

I never said it was a ripoff. Just overpriced.
...and the price of J74s over here is at least 3 times what you guys pay - that's a ripoff.

[Eric C.]

Ouch! I have to change them every two weeks.

[Polecat]

That's absolutely ridiculous. You don't build things to prove something is overpriced. If that was the case, I'd be making Gibson style mandolins.

For a start the tone gard company is tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production. If I built one I would have to learn new skills, buy new tools and source materials. It's absurd to even compare my costs of making one and tone gard's costs.

Of course there are economies of scale to be had. Buying bulk materials for a start. Even if he is only laser cutting the middle part, he's still achieving enormous savings.

Tone Gard are charging the price the market will bear. If you want to pay that price that's your business
.

I get your point, Pete, I'm not sure that you get mine, though - of course I'm not suggesting that anyone can build a tone gard as cheaply and efficiently as an outfit that has been specifically set up to do the job, but it can give you an idea, and with a little imagination you can form a much better informed opinion about the pricing of a product such as a tone gard, which is in essence a few steel rods welded together (and I'm not knocking it) - the Gibson you mentioned as a comparison is, with respect, a very poor one; the skills needed to put together a primitive steel cage are relatively simple, and a lot of people already have them. To build a very good mandolin requires a much more versatile and developed skill set, which you can't learn in a couple of weeks.
I'm interested by your claim that the Tone Gard company is "tooled up to do the job and has processes in place for mass production" - do you seriously believe there is a market large enough to support mass production? I don't.